Am maybe, probably, hopefully going to law school..
malapropos (Jul 30 - 1:15 am)
This might end up being a longish post, so I'll ask the central question at the outset: How much does the assumption that the goal of LS is biglaw play in the advice generally given here?
In my one other post I mentioned that if I apply, it will be next year. I'm hoping I can get an idea of which direction the legal economy will go and I want to be out of school for a little be separate myself from the mindset of a student. (From school the world outside can look so blurry that I imagine it's easy to make the mistake of going to more school if it's something you want.)
So I don't want biglaw. I'd rather do sales or marketing or garbage pickup or something else that would suck but offer job security.
I want to do public defense or maybe govt work or maybe something at a nonprofit working on a specific issue like human rights. Mainly PD, though.
So does the advice change? Are the opportunities different?
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This might end up being a longish post, so I'll ask the central question at the outset: How much does the assumption that the goal of LS is biglaw play in the advice generally given here?
In my one other post I mentioned that if I apply, it will be next year. I'm hoping I can get an idea of which direction the legal economy will go and I want to be out of school for a little be separate myself from the mindset of a student. (From school the world outside can look so blurry that I imagine it's easy to make the mistake of going to more school if it's something you want.)
So I don't want biglaw. I'd rather do sales or marketing or garbage pickup or something else that would suck but offer job security.
I want to do public defense or maybe govt work or maybe something at a nonprofit working on a specific issue like human rights. Mainly PD, though.
So does the advice change? Are the opportunities different?
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therewillbeblood (Jul 30 - 10:01 am)
No, advice doesn't change. When I counsel against going to law school I don't even assume the applicant is aiming for Biglaw. Every job opening will get a flood of applicants; there are so many more people looking for law jobs than there are people with them. PD and government jobs are the same. And if you are serious about human rights work at a nonprofit, I would definitely rethink your goals because those jobs have always been rare, and there are waaay too many people who want to do that kind of work.
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No, advice doesn't change. When I counsel against going to law school I don't even assume the applicant is aiming for Biglaw. Every job opening will get a flood of applicants; there are so many more people looking for law jobs than there are people with them. PD and government jobs are the same. And if you are serious about human rights work at a nonprofit, I would definitely rethink your goals because those jobs have always been rare, and there are waaay too many people who want to do that kind of work.
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brasky (Jul 30 - 1:33 am)
Do not go to law school unless: 1) you are admitted to Harvard, Standard or Yale or 2) you have a full scholarship which is guaranteed for three years or 3) you are insane and want to eventually kill self.
Even if you fall under one of the three exceptions you should be aware law school involves reading and writing and so does law practice (if you manage to become hired as an actual attorney). If you do not really, really love reading and writing, you will not love law school or the practice of law.
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Do not go to law school unless: 1) you are admitted to Harvard, Standard or Yale or 2) you have a full scholarship which is guaranteed for three years or 3) you are insane and want to eventually kill self.
Even if you fall under one of the three exceptions you should be aware law school involves reading and writing and so does law practice (if you manage to become hired as an actual attorney). If you do not really, really love reading and writing, you will not love law school or the practice of law.
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FrankytheFly (Jul 30 - 3:55 am)
Why do you want to go so badly? Do you have a compelling reason for wanting to go to law school? Definitely do your research first. Also, visit my blog and read some of my recent posts where I calculate the lawyer to population ratio and the percentage of all lawyers who work as lawyers, etc.
http://FluserCucked.blogspot.com
I also have a list of articles to read at:
http://JDScam.blogspot.com
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Why do you want to go so badly? Do you have a compelling reason for wanting to go to law school? Definitely do your research first. Also, visit my blog and read some of my recent posts where I calculate the lawyer to population ratio and the percentage of all lawyers who work as lawyers, etc.
http://FluserCucked.blogspot.com
I also have a list of articles to read at:
http://JDScam.blogspot.com
Reply
dwismos (Jul 30 - 4:03 am)
Dude, I love those film shorts. Did you make some of those? Hilarious.
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Dude, I love those film shorts. Did you make some of those? Hilarious.
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Johndoeee (Jul 30 - 5:12 am)
Bookmarked your blog Frank. Thank you for taking the time to create yet another island of truth out there.
OP: Do something else with your life.
I can tell by your post you are not a good writer. Disjointed thoughts. That alone will kill you in law school. There are other issues but nothing I feel like writing about now, mainly concerning what you may imagine the field to be like vs. what it really is. What a "public defense" attorney does. What that means in terms of likely future advancement, pay, and lifestyle after 1-5-10-20 years.
Find something else to do with your life. Law is a dying field. Has been for years - decades actually - now.
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Bookmarked your blog Frank. Thank you for taking the time to create yet another island of truth out there.
OP: Do something else with your life.
I can tell by your post you are not a good writer. Disjointed thoughts. That alone will kill you in law school. There are other issues but nothing I feel like writing about now, mainly concerning what you may imagine the field to be like vs. what it really is. What a "public defense" attorney does. What that means in terms of likely future advancement, pay, and lifestyle after 1-5-10-20 years.
Find something else to do with your life. Law is a dying field. Has been for years - decades actually - now.
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ELECTRICLIGHTS (Jul 30 - 7:33 am)
"I want to do public defense or maybe govt work or maybe something at a nonprofit working on a specific issue like human rights. Mainly PD, though."
Translated:
"I don't want to produce anything of any value. I want to be a professional irritant. I want to go to trendy parties and fundraisers and show everyone what a compassionate freedom fighter I am."
You should go to law school. You will fit right in!
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"I want to do public defense or maybe govt work or maybe something at a nonprofit working on a specific issue like human rights. Mainly PD, though."
Translated:
"I don't want to produce anything of any value. I want to be a professional irritant. I want to go to trendy parties and fundraisers and show everyone what a compassionate freedom fighter I am."
You should go to law school. You will fit right in!
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LexCorde (Jul 30 - 8:45 am)
JohnDoeee is paratially incorrect. Failure to produce picture perfect prose and grammer on an anonymous blog is hardly true judgment on an individual's ability to write. One may still turn out to produce brilliant legal writings under pressure or he/she will learn to do so. It is never to late to decide what you want in life. The traditional high school-college-law school route is a dinosaur. Now many people go back to school/law school for many reasons even if they take a year or two off to figure out what they want. However, some on here are correct. If you are uncertain about what you want then you owe it to yourself to think about it before investing three years of your life and a lot of money in law school.
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JohnDoeee is paratially incorrect. Failure to produce picture perfect prose and grammer on an anonymous blog is hardly true judgment on an individual's ability to write. One may still turn out to produce brilliant legal writings under pressure or he/she will learn to do so. It is never to late to decide what you want in life. The traditional high school-college-law school route is a dinosaur. Now many people go back to school/law school for many reasons even if they take a year or two off to figure out what they want. However, some on here are correct. If you are uncertain about what you want then you owe it to yourself to think about it before investing three years of your life and a lot of money in law school.
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SmilinJackCasey (Jul 30 - 11:42 am)
Lex, I'm so glad you've been posting more. Shine on, you crazy diamond!
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Lex, I'm so glad you've been posting more. Shine on, you crazy diamond!
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Oldster (Jul 30 - 11:36 am)
Whether you do something or don’t do something depends on whether you can afford it. Do you buy a Chevy or do you buy a Cadillac? Which one can you afford? Do you have the money upfront or do you need to finance your purchase? If you finance your purchase, nobody is going to care 5 years later why you can’t “afford” to pay because it is irrelevant. For example, here’s a cautionary tale regarding what seemed to be the crème-de-la-crème of law graduates: http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ex-biglaw_associate_faces_ethics_case_over_alleged_student_loan_nonpayment/
He has 5 years Big Law experience and another 5 years of what appears to be executive experience and/or consulting. No mention is made what his ending salary was before he took on $78k student debt for an executive degree, so assume that is irrelevant. No mention is made of any work or income derived during executive school, so assume that is irrelevant. No mention is made whether he even graduated with a degree for his $78k “investment” so assume that is irrelevant. No mention is made of any work outside the $190k-220k he made for 2 years at the third Big Law firm or how it compared with entry salaries, so assume that is irrelevant as well. No mention is made whether he has a job to even make payments after he lost his job 18 months ago, so assume that is irrelevant. No mention is made why ISAC didn’t institute AWG proceedings unless he was jobless and had nothing to garnish. No mention whether this guy had assets to levy, a spouse, a house, etc., so assume that is all irrelevant.
His big crime? Not talking to a creditor while unemployed. This creditor? The state of Illinois---why are they even in the business of loaning money for these so-called “degrees” that can be obtained on-line? Was this a credit-based loan and therefore a money making venture for the state that they lost or was this a “need-based-loan” and they had to loan money because of federal law? Again, facts left out that appear to be irrelevant.
So, when making a decision on whether to attend law school or not, think about the facts which are irrelevant now and the only fact that is relevant which is your ability to pay for the education.
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Whether you do something or don’t do something depends on whether you can afford it. Do you buy a Chevy or do you buy a Cadillac? Which one can you afford? Do you have the money upfront or do you need to finance your purchase? If you finance your purchase, nobody is going to care 5 years later why you can’t “afford” to pay because it is irrelevant. For example, here’s a cautionary tale regarding what seemed to be the crème-de-la-crème of law graduates: http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ex-biglaw_associate_faces_ethics_case_over_alleged_student_loan_nonpayment/
He has 5 years Big Law experience and another 5 years of what appears to be executive experience and/or consulting. No mention is made what his ending salary was before he took on $78k student debt for an executive degree, so assume that is irrelevant. No mention is made of any work or income derived during executive school, so assume that is irrelevant. No mention is made whether he even graduated with a degree for his $78k “investment” so assume that is irrelevant. No mention is made of any work outside the $190k-220k he made for 2 years at the third Big Law firm or how it compared with entry salaries, so assume that is irrelevant as well. No mention is made whether he has a job to even make payments after he lost his job 18 months ago, so assume that is irrelevant. No mention is made why ISAC didn’t institute AWG proceedings unless he was jobless and had nothing to garnish. No mention whether this guy had assets to levy, a spouse, a house, etc., so assume that is all irrelevant.
His big crime? Not talking to a creditor while unemployed. This creditor? The state of Illinois---why are they even in the business of loaning money for these so-called “degrees” that can be obtained on-line? Was this a credit-based loan and therefore a money making venture for the state that they lost or was this a “need-based-loan” and they had to loan money because of federal law? Again, facts left out that appear to be irrelevant.
So, when making a decision on whether to attend law school or not, think about the facts which are irrelevant now and the only fact that is relevant which is your ability to pay for the education.
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johndoeee (Jul 30 - 12:46 pm)
Unreal.
Unbelievable.
This guy deserves the "Biggest Idiot Eva Award".
I just don't believe that people - who have the ability to repay - decide that, "Oh.. That's just not for me right now."
Then again, having said that, it was not law but medical students who would graduate from medical school and decide to buy a car vs. repay their loans.
They prompted the change in the BK law back in 1998 moreso than any other group which made sl non-dischargeable in bankruptcy.
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Unreal.
Unbelievable.
This guy deserves the "Biggest Idiot Eva Award".
I just don't believe that people - who have the ability to repay - decide that, "Oh.. That's just not for me right now."
Then again, having said that, it was not law but medical students who would graduate from medical school and decide to buy a car vs. repay their loans.
They prompted the change in the BK law back in 1998 moreso than any other group which made sl non-dischargeable in bankruptcy.
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LexCorde (Jul 30 - 12:56 pm)
We should lobby the legislature to make SL dischargeable in BK proceedings again.
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We should lobby the legislature to make SL dischargeable in BK proceedings again.
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Oldster (Jul 30 - 1:04 pm)
Johndoee, if the guy had the ability to pay, why did ISAC give him a 1 year hardship forbearance 8/2007 until 12/2007---all when he was making $190k/year? My point is that the ARDC failed to investigate what I believe to be relevant facts and instead went to the press with headline catching "news" to cover up the obvious poor banking work of the ISAC. ISAC, IMHO, should simply not be in the business of loan-making. They do a bad job originating, servicing and then collecting on debt.
LexCorde, I think we should simply lobby Congress to set a floor on borrowing, like $10k/year (that will pay for a decent on-line degree) and then demand that colleges or universities guarantee or originate the rest, just like they did in the olden days. Once colleges or universities have some skin in the game again, then a degree will once again mean something. Yes, SL debt should be treated like any other debt and I believe the means test sufficiently flushes out fraud more so than the hardship test ever attempts to do.
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Johndoee, if the guy had the ability to pay, why did ISAC give him a 1 year hardship forbearance 8/2007 until 12/2007---all when he was making $190k/year? My point is that the ARDC failed to investigate what I believe to be relevant facts and instead went to the press with headline catching "news" to cover up the obvious poor banking work of the ISAC. ISAC, IMHO, should simply not be in the business of loan-making. They do a bad job originating, servicing and then collecting on debt.
LexCorde, I think we should simply lobby Congress to set a floor on borrowing, like $10k/year (that will pay for a decent on-line degree) and then demand that colleges or universities guarantee or originate the rest, just like they did in the olden days. Once colleges or universities have some skin in the game again, then a degree will once again mean something. Yes, SL debt should be treated like any other debt and I believe the means test sufficiently flushes out fraud more so than the hardship test ever attempts to do.
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johndoeee (Jul 30 - 1:18 pm)
The article doesn't say they granted him a hardship deferment.
"He enrolled in the University of Chicago's business school in June of 2005, taking out a little over $78,000 in student loans within less than a year before withdrawing from the program in March of 2006. But when monthly student loan bills of $733.84 began arriving in the mail in October 2006 he didn't pay them, either then or later, the complaint alleges.
In April 2007, Nicol began working as an associate in the corporate and securities group of DLA Piper's Chicago office, earning $190,000 a year. At the end of August, still having made no payments on his student loans, he requested a one-time one-year administrative forbearance for what amounted to the 2007 calendar year, bringing his loan current and postponing the need to repay until Dec. 31, 2007."
This was, I think, a one-shot deal to bring his loans current and lasted for one year.
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The article doesn't say they granted him a hardship deferment.
"He enrolled in the University of Chicago's business school in June of 2005, taking out a little over $78,000 in student loans within less than a year before withdrawing from the program in March of 2006. But when monthly student loan bills of $733.84 began arriving in the mail in October 2006 he didn't pay them, either then or later, the complaint alleges.
In April 2007, Nicol began working as an associate in the corporate and securities group of DLA Piper's Chicago office, earning $190,000 a year. At the end of August, still having made no payments on his student loans, he requested a one-time one-year administrative forbearance for what amounted to the 2007 calendar year, bringing his loan current and postponing the need to repay until Dec. 31, 2007."
This was, I think, a one-shot deal to bring his loans current and lasted for one year.
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brasky (Jul 30 - 1:07 pm)
I can buy $100k of gay porn on a loan and discharge it but not student loans. The system is working.
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I can buy $100k of gay porn on a loan and discharge it but not student loans. The system is working.
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LexCorde (Jul 30 - 1:13 pm)
Brasky, LMFAO!!!!!
Oldster,that would lock a lot of people out of getting higher education. Are you advocating for a less educated public and higher ed being only for the wealthy or connected? Also, colleges and universities are businesses who like any business, including your law practice, is in it for money. So, they do not care if the money comes from student's pockets directly or the government. Granted, the schools should have more responsibility and loss if a student defaults. But capping the borrowing amount would hurt more than it helps. Also, just because a degree is not rare doesn't mean its not worth anything. A law degree still holds a great deal of respect and admiration in society. But having the license to practice is even more valuable. Everytime I tell people that I am now a lawyer, I feel the praise and respectful attitudes.
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Brasky, LMFAO!!!!!
Oldster,that would lock a lot of people out of getting higher education. Are you advocating for a less educated public and higher ed being only for the wealthy or connected? Also, colleges and universities are businesses who like any business, including your law practice, is in it for money. So, they do not care if the money comes from student's pockets directly or the government. Granted, the schools should have more responsibility and loss if a student defaults. But capping the borrowing amount would hurt more than it helps. Also, just because a degree is not rare doesn't mean its not worth anything. A law degree still holds a great deal of respect and admiration in society. But having the license to practice is even more valuable. Everytime I tell people that I am now a lawyer, I feel the praise and respectful attitudes.
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malapropos (Jul 30 - 4:39 pm)
All of these threads, no matter how they start, unravel the same way: (1) don't go to law school unless you want to killself, get into YHS or get a full scholarship, (2) a few insulting comments rebuking a person's desire to do law, (3) intense anger over the student loan system and annoyance that you can't get out of them.
I get it. It sucks. Law isn't the gravy train it's made out to be in common mythology. Too many people don't get jobs, especially high-paying ones. Too many people go to shitty law schools without researching actual employment prospects. Law school is a bad investment at least when treated as a monetary investment. Times are tough. All that. I get it.
Job prospects, however, are not as bad as they are for academia. They're also not much worse than a lot of non-professional careers right now. Job prospects will get better even if they don't improve enough to support all the graduates of all of the way too many law schools.
The advice on here is too often over-inflamed by the fact that so many of you are unemployment JDs. But there aren't many places to get the hard advice from people who have gone through it. So I asked a fairly specific question and received, I think, two relevant responses. Even those responses weren't very thought-out or useful.
So, I'm not buying "HYS or bust." That's clearly far too strong advice for someone who actually wants to practice law and is not doing it for an almost guaranteed shot at big money. You guys lose credibility through too much over-stating and hurt what seems to be your purpose: to warn people like me.
That's all. Ensue the disparaging remarks.
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All of these threads, no matter how they start, unravel the same way: (1) don't go to law school unless you want to killself, get into YHS or get a full scholarship, (2) a few insulting comments rebuking a person's desire to do law, (3) intense anger over the student loan system and annoyance that you can't get out of them.
I get it. It sucks. Law isn't the gravy train it's made out to be in common mythology. Too many people don't get jobs, especially high-paying ones. Too many people go to shitty law schools without researching actual employment prospects. Law school is a bad investment at least when treated as a monetary investment. Times are tough. All that. I get it.
Job prospects, however, are not as bad as they are for academia. They're also not much worse than a lot of non-professional careers right now. Job prospects will get better even if they don't improve enough to support all the graduates of all of the way too many law schools.
The advice on here is too often over-inflamed by the fact that so many of you are unemployment JDs. But there aren't many places to get the hard advice from people who have gone through it. So I asked a fairly specific question and received, I think, two relevant responses. Even those responses weren't very thought-out or useful.
So, I'm not buying "HYS or bust." That's clearly far too strong advice for someone who actually wants to practice law and is not doing it for an almost guaranteed shot at big money. You guys lose credibility through too much over-stating and hurt what seems to be your purpose: to warn people like me.
That's all. Ensue the disparaging remarks.
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johndoeee (Jul 30 - 5:10 pm)
Job prospects, however, are not as bad as they are for academia. They're also not much worse than a lot of non-professional careers right now. Job prospects will get better even if they don't improve enough to support all the graduates of all of the way too many law schools.
The advice on here is too often over-inflamed by the fact that so many of you are unemployment JDs. But there aren't many places to get the hard advice from people who have gone through it. So I asked a fairly specific question and received, I think, two relevant responses. Even those responses weren't very thought-out or useful.
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The above spelling and grammar mistakes have been noted.
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Job prospects, however, are not as bad as they are for academia. They're also not much worse than a lot of non-professional careers right now. Job prospects will get better even if they don't improve enough to support all the graduates of all of the way too many law schools.
The advice on here is too often over-inflamed by the fact that so many of you are unemployment JDs. But there aren't many places to get the hard advice from people who have gone through it. So I asked a fairly specific question and received, I think, two relevant responses. Even those responses weren't very thought-out or useful.
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The above spelling and grammar mistakes have been noted.
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malapropos (Jul 30 - 5:27 pm)
I'm counting one. I also assume you mean that you are noting them, in which case I can't think of something to care less about. Please refrain from posting empty, obnoxious and overly arrogant messages.
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I'm counting one. I also assume you mean that you are noting them, in which case I can't think of something to care less about. Please refrain from posting empty, obnoxious and overly arrogant messages.
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malapropos (Jul 30 - 5:43 pm)
(1) I am absolutely certain I never said I've decided on law school. I just said that you give terrible, worthless advice.
(2) By "You've been warned," I guess you mean that you've warned me that my forum writing is not up to snuff for law school. See (1).
I am absolutely open to hearing about the realistic job market. I do not want to battle about these little things because you're disgruntled. I've been through graduate school. I've published in an academic journal. My writing is fine. I'm inquiring about the realities for govt, PD and non-profit work, because most of the advice here is directed to biglaw/mid/shitlaw.
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(1) I am absolutely certain I never said I've decided on law school. I just said that you give terrible, worthless advice.
(2) By "You've been warned," I guess you mean that you've warned me that my forum writing is not up to snuff for law school. See (1).
I am absolutely open to hearing about the realistic job market. I do not want to battle about these little things because you're disgruntled. I've been through graduate school. I've published in an academic journal. My writing is fine. I'm inquiring about the realities for govt, PD and non-profit work, because most of the advice here is directed to biglaw/mid/shitlaw.
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therewillbeblood (Jul 30 - 5:58 pm)
Job prospects are worse than you can imagine. I have a job. I have a fairly secure and well-paying job. I'm not speaking from (too much) bitterness on a personal level. But I was very, very lucky. And I graduated a couple of years ago, too. If you are graduating now you are in for a world of pain that you just can't imagine. What you don't understand is all these gloomy, over-the-top descriptions of the job market are completely accurate. Try this; put a job posting on craigslist for an entry-level lawyer, making 50k, and see how many applications you get.
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Job prospects are worse than you can imagine. I have a job. I have a fairly secure and well-paying job. I'm not speaking from (too much) bitterness on a personal level. But I was very, very lucky. And I graduated a couple of years ago, too. If you are graduating now you are in for a world of pain that you just can't imagine. What you don't understand is all these gloomy, over-the-top descriptions of the job market are completely accurate. Try this; put a job posting on craigslist for an entry-level lawyer, making 50k, and see how many applications you get.
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Oldster (Jul 30 - 4:58 pm)
Since you want to do PD, gov't or nonprofit work which pays about $40-50k/year, depending on your area, don't spend more than $40-50k for your law degree. Your options are on-line or work days, go at night, or find a cheap school. You don't really need a HYS degree to do that kind of work any way. Look at your job opportunities through USA Jobs. gov or state government job postings and work backwards on what you can afford. Hope this helps.
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Since you want to do PD, gov't or nonprofit work which pays about $40-50k/year, depending on your area, don't spend more than $40-50k for your law degree. Your options are on-line or work days, go at night, or find a cheap school. You don't really need a HYS degree to do that kind of work any way. Look at your job opportunities through USA Jobs. gov or state government job postings and work backwards on what you can afford. Hope this helps.
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malapropos (Jul 30 - 5:20 pm)
Thanks Oldster. That's good advice to search for jobs. I didn't really have any idea where to search for job listings other than the websites of particular offices. They're usually not very specific about their expectations.
If I go, I don't want to have loans of more than 50k. Although IBR and schools with good LRAP make the idea of going to a top school and taking the loans tempting. Of course, the stress of needing to get a non-profit or govt job would be rather stressful. I know they can be hard to come by, and almost impossible right now with hiring freezes. I've heard (just on TLS, really) that PD offices tend to favor local schools over prestige anyways, though. So there is there truth to this?
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Thanks Oldster. That's good advice to search for jobs. I didn't really have any idea where to search for job listings other than the websites of particular offices. They're usually not very specific about their expectations.
If I go, I don't want to have loans of more than 50k. Although IBR and schools with good LRAP make the idea of going to a top school and taking the loans tempting. Of course, the stress of needing to get a non-profit or govt job would be rather stressful. I know they can be hard to come by, and almost impossible right now with hiring freezes. I've heard (just on TLS, really) that PD offices tend to favor local schools over prestige anyways, though. So there is there truth to this?
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AJRESQ (Jul 30 - 5:40 pm)
I went to law school to be a DA and now I do something entirely different. A lot of what you do (or don't do) will be luck.
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I went to law school to be a DA and now I do something entirely different. A lot of what you do (or don't do) will be luck.
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malapropos (Jul 30 - 5:50 pm)
Yes, I've read a few people write a similar perspective. Why didn't you end up being a DA? Are the chances to get into this type of work decent, assuming you go to either a top school or the regional school? Are there things one can do to increase chances of getting PD, govt or non-profit jobs?
I'm guessing the main things would be to get into the clinics, do moot court, get the right summer work and take courses like Evidence. (I've heard many people don't take it because it's hard, but PD offices look for courses more than firms do.)
Is the best summer work in PD offices?
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Yes, I've read a few people write a similar perspective. Why didn't you end up being a DA? Are the chances to get into this type of work decent, assuming you go to either a top school or the regional school? Are there things one can do to increase chances of getting PD, govt or non-profit jobs?
I'm guessing the main things would be to get into the clinics, do moot court, get the right summer work and take courses like Evidence. (I've heard many people don't take it because it's hard, but PD offices look for courses more than firms do.)
Is the best summer work in PD offices?
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AJRESQ (Jul 30 - 6:34 pm)
True story: I placed in the top 5% of my TTTT school (transferred to a TT) and got interviews with two DA offices (Philly and Camden) during OCI. I made it to the second round of interviews and didn't get selected with Philly. I got an offer from Camden, but totally randomly, I had an open warrant in Jersey for a fucking PARKING TICKET and they couldn't hire me because of it. Seriously.
What you can do for PD / DA jobs is TRIAL PRACTICE stuff in law school. Trial team, trial ad classes, trial trial trial. You must take evidence. That sort of thing. Try and do a summer there.
Again, your expectations and desires will probably change in law school, though. I hate criminal law. That, and what do you do after a PD / DA job? You either go become a civil litigator or hope crackheads can pay you in cash...
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True story: I placed in the top 5% of my TTTT school (transferred to a TT) and got interviews with two DA offices (Philly and Camden) during OCI. I made it to the second round of interviews and didn't get selected with Philly. I got an offer from Camden, but totally randomly, I had an open warrant in Jersey for a fucking PARKING TICKET and they couldn't hire me because of it. Seriously.
What you can do for PD / DA jobs is TRIAL PRACTICE stuff in law school. Trial team, trial ad classes, trial trial trial. You must take evidence. That sort of thing. Try and do a summer there.
Again, your expectations and desires will probably change in law school, though. I hate criminal law. That, and what do you do after a PD / DA job? You either go become a civil litigator or hope crackheads can pay you in cash...
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malapropos (Jul 30 - 9:28 pm)
Yes, what to do after PD is a concern. Right now I think I would want to keep doing PD and make it my career. But I know that most people leave because the stress and the way too many cases get to be too much. I've also heard that people often get desensitized and it eventually becomes tedious.
So, yeah, it being very easy to imagine how that happens psychologically, I am concerned about what to do after. I'm not sure what the options are after PD. I think there was information on that in some of the PD booklets from law schools, but I think it was pretty vague. If I were working in immigration, a transition to private practice would probably be easier.
Civil litigation doesn't sound appealing now, and cash-rich crackheads are probably exceedingly rare.
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Yes, what to do after PD is a concern. Right now I think I would want to keep doing PD and make it my career. But I know that most people leave because the stress and the way too many cases get to be too much. I've also heard that people often get desensitized and it eventually becomes tedious.
So, yeah, it being very easy to imagine how that happens psychologically, I am concerned about what to do after. I'm not sure what the options are after PD. I think there was information on that in some of the PD booklets from law schools, but I think it was pretty vague. If I were working in immigration, a transition to private practice would probably be easier.
Civil litigation doesn't sound appealing now, and cash-rich crackheads are probably exceedingly rare.
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Cantabrigian (Jul 30 - 6:18 pm)
I think it's admirable that you're headed towards law school with a wider focus than just Biglaw. However, don't by any means assume that by aiming for more modest goals you'll be guaranteed or even likely to achieve them.
There are a lot of law students aiming for work at non-profits and in government. Not to mention a lot of seasoned, laid-off attorneys. And attorneys ready to step away from law firm associate positions. It's still very competitive.
It's certainly possible to get a public defender type job if you do well grade-wise and, as you said, do moot court and clinics. However, it's also certainly possible to benefit the poor and downtrodden--and likely in a more direct way--without being their attorney.
Law school is a gamble. I had modest goals like you, and was unfocused like you. I lucked into a law job after passing at a non-profit that paid $45,000. I got laid off, and it's been seven months of luckless searching, and non-law jobs don't take me seriously. And I have $112,000 of debt.
Just think about it, and make sure you have a solid, articulable reason before you take the plunge.
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I think it's admirable that you're headed towards law school with a wider focus than just Biglaw. However, don't by any means assume that by aiming for more modest goals you'll be guaranteed or even likely to achieve them.
There are a lot of law students aiming for work at non-profits and in government. Not to mention a lot of seasoned, laid-off attorneys. And attorneys ready to step away from law firm associate positions. It's still very competitive.
It's certainly possible to get a public defender type job if you do well grade-wise and, as you said, do moot court and clinics. However, it's also certainly possible to benefit the poor and downtrodden--and likely in a more direct way--without being their attorney.
Law school is a gamble. I had modest goals like you, and was unfocused like you. I lucked into a law job after passing at a non-profit that paid $45,000. I got laid off, and it's been seven months of luckless searching, and non-law jobs don't take me seriously. And I have $112,000 of debt.
Just think about it, and make sure you have a solid, articulable reason before you take the plunge.
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malapropos (Jul 30 - 9:17 pm)
I love this advice to have a solid, articulable reason. It's a tough decision with a lot of factors to consider. I by no means think getting govt and nonprofit work is easy. It's harder to get a grasp on how bad that market is and how permanent the changes are because here (and everywhere else) people mostly talk about biglaw prospects. I can see why. I just have no interest in it.
I never thought of it as a modest goal--just a different goal. There are the typical stories people tell of people with goals like mine being sucked into biglaw because of debt and dollar signs. That's always been my main concern when I've thought about law school through the years: avoiding the trappings of big law. Upon (lots of) further research I've come to find out how hard and coveted biglaw is.
What are your (or anyone else's) impressions of IBR and LRAP programs. Are they as good as they are on paper for people who have LS debt?
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I love this advice to have a solid, articulable reason. It's a tough decision with a lot of factors to consider. I by no means think getting govt and nonprofit work is easy. It's harder to get a grasp on how bad that market is and how permanent the changes are because here (and everywhere else) people mostly talk about biglaw prospects. I can see why. I just have no interest in it.
I never thought of it as a modest goal--just a different goal. There are the typical stories people tell of people with goals like mine being sucked into biglaw because of debt and dollar signs. That's always been my main concern when I've thought about law school through the years: avoiding the trappings of big law. Upon (lots of) further research I've come to find out how hard and coveted biglaw is.
What are your (or anyone else's) impressions of IBR and LRAP programs. Are they as good as they are on paper for people who have LS debt?
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brasky (Jul 30 - 7:02 pm)
To the OP:
Here is my reality. I am currently attending a TTT @$7000 tuition. My grades are better than 70% of my class. I cannot get a job. I cannot get an interview. I cannot volunteer. People will not let me work for them for free. Free! That is how worthless my skills are to society.
I do know some of the students do have jobs. People ranked far below me and above me. However, all of those aforementioned people know attorney's who gave them a job. An old boss, their father etc. You will not end up where you want to unless you have extremely, extremely good grades or have connections.
At the end of the day it is certainly, absolutely, not going to be worth it financially if you a total loan debt of over 50k. Unless you attend a very highly ranked school. And if it is not HYS, it still remains a gamble. I just finished watching a Youtube video on three NYU law graduates who have no job despite throwing out resumes to zillions of employers.
You want to help the downtrodden? Guess what those jobs are hard to come by. Why? Because they have no money. So you have to find someone who is willing to pay you to help them. There are not that many of those organizations in my State.
You want to work for the government? These jobs are hard to come by. Currently in my state there is a hiring freeze for virtually ever government position.
You think we are lying to you. All I can say is you will find this is basically the reality if you attend law school. Trust me. I know better than you.
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To the OP:
Here is my reality. I am currently attending a TTT @$7000 tuition. My grades are better than 70% of my class. I cannot get a job. I cannot get an interview. I cannot volunteer. People will not let me work for them for free. Free! That is how worthless my skills are to society.
I do know some of the students do have jobs. People ranked far below me and above me. However, all of those aforementioned people know attorney's who gave them a job. An old boss, their father etc. You will not end up where you want to unless you have extremely, extremely good grades or have connections.
At the end of the day it is certainly, absolutely, not going to be worth it financially if you a total loan debt of over 50k. Unless you attend a very highly ranked school. And if it is not HYS, it still remains a gamble. I just finished watching a Youtube video on three NYU law graduates who have no job despite throwing out resumes to zillions of employers.
You want to help the downtrodden? Guess what those jobs are hard to come by. Why? Because they have no money. So you have to find someone who is willing to pay you to help them. There are not that many of those organizations in my State.
You want to work for the government? These jobs are hard to come by. Currently in my state there is a hiring freeze for virtually ever government position.
You think we are lying to you. All I can say is you will find this is basically the reality if you attend law school. Trust me. I know better than you.
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malapropos (Jul 30 - 8:51 pm)
hey Brasky,
Sorry to hear that. Even though things were never great before, people in law school now are in an especially bad spot.
For the record, I don't think you are all lying. I just think the message is often over-inflamed.
While I know there are hiring freezes in govt right now, these types of jobs are, I would think, more likely to bounce back. The recession didn't speed up or force a structural change in govt like it did for biglaw and private firms. It forced a temporary hiring freeze due to lack of funds. This is one of the reasons I wanted to ask specifically about this kind of work. Of course it is likely that as a result of the changes in biglaw more people will be moving to govt/nonprofit, and so prospects will reach those jobs. All these issues can be hard to untangle.
Thanks for the thoughts--really. Also, does TTT denote third tier? Do these shorthands go: T - first tier, TT - second tier, TTT - third tier, TTTT - fourth.. and then T10, etc. for the ranking spots?
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hey Brasky,
Sorry to hear that. Even though things were never great before, people in law school now are in an especially bad spot.
For the record, I don't think you are all lying. I just think the message is often over-inflamed.
While I know there are hiring freezes in govt right now, these types of jobs are, I would think, more likely to bounce back. The recession didn't speed up or force a structural change in govt like it did for biglaw and private firms. It forced a temporary hiring freeze due to lack of funds. This is one of the reasons I wanted to ask specifically about this kind of work. Of course it is likely that as a result of the changes in biglaw more people will be moving to govt/nonprofit, and so prospects will reach those jobs. All these issues can be hard to untangle.
Thanks for the thoughts--really. Also, does TTT denote third tier? Do these shorthands go: T - first tier, TT - second tier, TTT - third tier, TTTT - fourth.. and then T10, etc. for the ranking spots?
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Oldster (Jul 30 - 7:40 pm)
If you really want to get into nonprofit, maybe start aligning yourself with one or think think about what interests you specifically. Is it the allegedly stress-free environment, the specific tasks, the people you would meet, the clients, etc? http://www.worldwidelearn.com/online-education-guide/business/nonprofit-management-major.htm
Maybe you don't even need a law degree to ultimately get what you want. Try this Chronicle of Philanthropy for ideas: http://philanthropy.com/section/Home/172 If you want to be a PD, go to your local criminal court and see how the PDs operate--maybe strike up a conversation if they even have time.
I absolutely agree that having an articulated reason for going to law school is a requirement. You may find criminal law interesting on paper, but the day-to-day practice in a very busy environment may not suit you. I saw the movie, "Glory" recently and was impressed by the scene where a young black soldier was very happy that he could shoot. He was happy, however, until the Colonel started stressing him and yelling at him and then shooting over him to mimic the reality of war. The young soldier froze, but wasn't thrown out--he just need to be trained. It would be wise, therefore, to go to some criminal courts and see how they operate and make sure that you will enjoy that environment because legal clinics will not quite mimic real life practice.
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If you really want to get into nonprofit, maybe start aligning yourself with one or think think about what interests you specifically. Is it the allegedly stress-free environment, the specific tasks, the people you would meet, the clients, etc? http://www.worldwidelearn.com/online-education-guide/business/nonprofit-management-major.htm
Maybe you don't even need a law degree to ultimately get what you want. Try this Chronicle of Philanthropy for ideas: http://philanthropy.com/section/Home/172 If you want to be a PD, go to your local criminal court and see how the PDs operate--maybe strike up a conversation if they even have time.
I absolutely agree that having an articulated reason for going to law school is a requirement. You may find criminal law interesting on paper, but the day-to-day practice in a very busy environment may not suit you. I saw the movie, "Glory" recently and was impressed by the scene where a young black soldier was very happy that he could shoot. He was happy, however, until the Colonel started stressing him and yelling at him and then shooting over him to mimic the reality of war. The young soldier froze, but wasn't thrown out--he just need to be trained. It would be wise, therefore, to go to some criminal courts and see how they operate and make sure that you will enjoy that environment because legal clinics will not quite mimic real life practice.
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malapropos (Jul 30 - 9:00 pm)
That's really good advice, and I'll definitely try to get in contact with a PD. I have connections with a family that operates its own firm in my hometown, and theyre really well connected, so maybe I can get matched up with one for at least a day or a meeting.
I also like the requirement of articulating the reasons for law school.
It is certainly in part a desire to help the disadvantaged people. It's a lot to do with a desire to have a job I carry with me. By that I mean doing something that has real direct consequences and something I am emotionally attached to. It is also about the fire that builds inside when I read about civil rights abuses. I would really like the idea of working in human rights, but I favor PD over policy cases because of the previous point: real, direct consequences. I'd especially like to work on indigent immigration cases, and I know there are some opportunities for that in states bordering with mexico. So it centers around human rights, criminal defense and immigration. PD would get two of those passions. PD in an office specializing in immigration would be a goddamn dream.
No need to really post that, but there it is. Thanks again for the advice.
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That's really good advice, and I'll definitely try to get in contact with a PD. I have connections with a family that operates its own firm in my hometown, and theyre really well connected, so maybe I can get matched up with one for at least a day or a meeting.
I also like the requirement of articulating the reasons for law school.
It is certainly in part a desire to help the disadvantaged people. It's a lot to do with a desire to have a job I carry with me. By that I mean doing something that has real direct consequences and something I am emotionally attached to. It is also about the fire that builds inside when I read about civil rights abuses. I would really like the idea of working in human rights, but I favor PD over policy cases because of the previous point: real, direct consequences. I'd especially like to work on indigent immigration cases, and I know there are some opportunities for that in states bordering with mexico. So it centers around human rights, criminal defense and immigration. PD would get two of those passions. PD in an office specializing in immigration would be a goddamn dream.
No need to really post that, but there it is. Thanks again for the advice.
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brasky (Jul 30 - 9:21 pm)
Aside from the actual difficulties in finding employment there is also the actual work you will be doing to consider.
As I said before do you really, really, really love reading and writing extremely dry and/or dense material? Reading a casebook is far, far different from reading generally. I strongly suggest find a casebook and read fifty pages a day for five days (this is a typical week of reading). If you find this exciting and interesting law school may be a good choice (assuming you find a law school that isn't uber expensive). I will say, I cannot remember speaking with a single class member who has told me they LOVE (or even strongly like for that matter) law school or the work they are doing.
I am not trying to discourage you from attending school. I simply want you to acquire knowledge from unbiased sources to determine if law school is the correct choice to make (in other words do not talk with staff or faculty of a law school). I am sure there are some people who are very happy with their decision to attend law school. However, at my school, based on my experience, this is not the typical attitude.
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Aside from the actual difficulties in finding employment there is also the actual work you will be doing to consider.
As I said before do you really, really, really love reading and writing extremely dry and/or dense material? Reading a casebook is far, far different from reading generally. I strongly suggest find a casebook and read fifty pages a day for five days (this is a typical week of reading). If you find this exciting and interesting law school may be a good choice (assuming you find a law school that isn't uber expensive). I will say, I cannot remember speaking with a single class member who has told me they LOVE (or even strongly like for that matter) law school or the work they are doing.
I am not trying to discourage you from attending school. I simply want you to acquire knowledge from unbiased sources to determine if law school is the correct choice to make (in other words do not talk with staff or faculty of a law school). I am sure there are some people who are very happy with their decision to attend law school. However, at my school, based on my experience, this is not the typical attitude.
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malapropos (Jul 30 - 9:39 pm)
I'm now so glad I posted here. The best place to get a case book is probably a law library. There isn't one near me. Are there other places to get my hands on one?
I do love reading and writing. Dry is worse than wet, but dense is good.
And, yeah, faculty members are never the right people to ask. They're always biased and rosy-eyed.
I'm totally aware that even lots of (seems like most) successful lawyers are not happy in their jobs. Even before I started researching how grim the job prospects are I was researching why lawyers so often hate their jobs. I passed that hurdle already, although I always have an eye on it.
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I'm now so glad I posted here. The best place to get a case book is probably a law library. There isn't one near me. Are there other places to get my hands on one?
I do love reading and writing. Dry is worse than wet, but dense is good.
And, yeah, faculty members are never the right people to ask. They're always biased and rosy-eyed.
I'm totally aware that even lots of (seems like most) successful lawyers are not happy in their jobs. Even before I started researching how grim the job prospects are I was researching why lawyers so often hate their jobs. I passed that hurdle already, although I always have an eye on it.
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jbiresq (Jul 30 - 7:55 pm)
Just remember that these jobs are incredibly competitive (given that the legal market is going to be screwed for a long time) and that most states are in dire fiscal shape and will be for a long time, barring a miraculous turnaround in the economy. So, you'll be forced to compete with very qualified applicants for a federal job or be stuck in one of the few states (Kansas, Montana, North Dakota, Iowa, etc.) that have their houses in enough order to keep hiring. And, you'll probably not want to live in these places. Also, programs for the poor will be the first things to get cut when deficit reduction starts getting serious in Washington.
Still, I hope you succeed.
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Just remember that these jobs are incredibly competitive (given that the legal market is going to be screwed for a long time) and that most states are in dire fiscal shape and will be for a long time, barring a miraculous turnaround in the economy. So, you'll be forced to compete with very qualified applicants for a federal job or be stuck in one of the few states (Kansas, Montana, North Dakota, Iowa, etc.) that have their houses in enough order to keep hiring. And, you'll probably not want to live in these places. Also, programs for the poor will be the first things to get cut when deficit reduction starts getting serious in Washington.
Still, I hope you succeed.
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AssociateX (Jul 31 - 1:23 am)
To the OP:
My advice might not be super helpful since I graduated from a 2nd tier LS almost 10 years ago and the job market was very different even in 2005 when I got admitted to practice, but the general advice given above still holds true. Your open-mindedness about career choice will be beneficial. When I started law school at the age of 23, I had high hopes of working for a private firm doing international business (I speak 2 foreign languages fluently and studied abroad) or doing commercial bankruptcy. Neither of those options worked out. # 1 - my grades and class rank were horrendous in 1L so the BigLaw option was killed ASAP, # 2- even with my law school clinic experience, professor recommendations and 10000 resume bombs to Bankruptcy firms, many of them weren't interested in hiring a female URM for an entry level associate position (either they wanted ex-BigLaw people or white males who "fit" the profile they needed to attract certain clients). So I took a job in insurance defense and that is where I decided to remain for my career until now.
My suggestion, besides those posted already, is to really think long and hard about the finances of law school. Entry level salaries in law have always been low. Lawyers in the mid 1990s were working for crappy salaries just like new grads now. I don't think that will really change. The only thing to be aware of is that there are 200+ ABA approved law schools in the USA now. In 2015, or 2020 that number will only increase. Its already an over-saturated market. If you can afford to even graduate from a semi decent LS like Emory, Fordham, Boston College, Univ of Houston, Villanova, etc with only 50K in TOTAL loan debt - you would be already slightly ahead of the game. If you can do this before you turn age 30, even better!
Also, don't assume that just talking to PD's or criminal defense attorneys in court is going to help. You will still only "see what you want to see" as a pre-law student. I can't count how many BigLaw attorneys I talked to when I was a college senior (I used to coordinate "networking events" with local lawyers/firms as part of my membership in A College Pre Law Club), and even though 1/2 of them would say "oh gosh, I don't think I'd do law school if I knew then what I know now" - a lot of that advice would fall on deaf ears. I think the best advice is to talk to ALL types of lawyers in ALL types of employment situations. Don't just limit yourself to PDs or DA's. Talk to small firm attorneys, crash a local bar association meeting, hit up a frequent law school bar hangout place. Lawyers you find at law school panels, admissions forums, or as part of some organization will always sugar coat many negatives. If you want the real dish, catch attorneys at bars or through informal contacts. Their advice will be honest and real.
As to whether you will tolerate 3 years of law school - my advice is to look into enrolling in those 2 or 3 week Pre Law Programs where you are immersed in a law school type experience with the reading material, professors, classmates, etc. I think Bar/Bri or Lexis sponsored this program called "NILE" which was a real eye opener because the program specifically targeted pre-law students to expose them to law school w/o the actual cost/time of the 1st year.
Their website is NILELaw.org - I highly recommend it because if you realize after that program that you hated every minute of it, then you will definitely hate law school, so why bother wasting 1 entire semester on tuition knowing what the work is really like?
I did the NILE program and actually enjoyed it which is why I love the reading/writing aspect of law practice. I think it was one of the best investments I made before 1L because I learned a lot in the process and felt more confident about my abilities and knowledge on 1L exams than many of my peers.
Hope this helps!
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Post a message in this threadTo the OP:
My advice might not be super helpful since I graduated from a 2nd tier LS almost 10 years ago and the job market was very different even in 2005 when I got admitted to practice, but the general advice given above still holds true. Your open-mindedness about career choice will be beneficial. When I started law school at the age of 23, I had high hopes of working for a private firm doing international business (I speak 2 foreign languages fluently and studied abroad) or doing commercial bankruptcy. Neither of those options worked out. # 1 - my grades and class rank were horrendous in 1L so the BigLaw option was killed ASAP, # 2- even with my law school clinic experience, professor recommendations and 10000 resume bombs to Bankruptcy firms, many of them weren't interested in hiring a female URM for an entry level associate position (either they wanted ex-BigLaw people or white males who "fit" the profile they needed to attract certain clients). So I took a job in insurance defense and that is where I decided to remain for my career until now.
My suggestion, besides those posted already, is to really think long and hard about the finances of law school. Entry level salaries in law have always been low. Lawyers in the mid 1990s were working for crappy salaries just like new grads now. I don't think that will really change. The only thing to be aware of is that there are 200+ ABA approved law schools in the USA now. In 2015, or 2020 that number will only increase. Its already an over-saturated market. If you can afford to even graduate from a semi decent LS like Emory, Fordham, Boston College, Univ of Houston, Villanova, etc with only 50K in TOTAL loan debt - you would be already slightly ahead of the game. If you can do this before you turn age 30, even better!
Also, don't assume that just talking to PD's or criminal defense attorneys in court is going to help. You will still only "see what you want to see" as a pre-law student. I can't count how many BigLaw attorneys I talked to when I was a college senior (I used to coordinate "networking events" with local lawyers/firms as part of my membership in A College Pre Law Club), and even though 1/2 of them would say "oh gosh, I don't think I'd do law school if I knew then what I know now" - a lot of that advice would fall on deaf ears. I think the best advice is to talk to ALL types of lawyers in ALL types of employment situations. Don't just limit yourself to PDs or DA's. Talk to small firm attorneys, crash a local bar association meeting, hit up a frequent law school bar hangout place. Lawyers you find at law school panels, admissions forums, or as part of some organization will always sugar coat many negatives. If you want the real dish, catch attorneys at bars or through informal contacts. Their advice will be honest and real.
As to whether you will tolerate 3 years of law school - my advice is to look into enrolling in those 2 or 3 week Pre Law Programs where you are immersed in a law school type experience with the reading material, professors, classmates, etc. I think Bar/Bri or Lexis sponsored this program called "NILE" which was a real eye opener because the program specifically targeted pre-law students to expose them to law school w/o the actual cost/time of the 1st year.
Their website is NILELaw.org - I highly recommend it because if you realize after that program that you hated every minute of it, then you will definitely hate law school, so why bother wasting 1 entire semester on tuition knowing what the work is really like?
I did the NILE program and actually enjoyed it which is why I love the reading/writing aspect of law practice. I think it was one of the best investments I made before 1L because I learned a lot in the process and felt more confident about my abilities and knowledge on 1L exams than many of my peers.
Hope this helps!
Reply