Reasons to quit a law job
scalia (Jul 29 - 9:40 pm)
Would any of you quit a firm job because the work environment was horrible? When I say horrible I mean the partner and a senior associate are sleeping together and the senior associate is suddenly allowed to run the whole firm. In the process you get zero direction and the senior associate proceeds to make your life hell.
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Would any of you quit a firm job because the work environment was horrible? When I say horrible I mean the partner and a senior associate are sleeping together and the senior associate is suddenly allowed to run the whole firm. In the process you get zero direction and the senior associate proceeds to make your life hell.
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Scalia (Jul 29 - 10:09 pm)
Basically not inviting you to meetings, then giving you assignments (without giving you important facts and details. Also, when you ask the senior associate to look through your work before a client meeting, he/she fails to do so even though its their job. The partner who is sleeping with the associate proceeds to blame you for this even though you do not have experience with this particular area of law.
I also normally billed eight hours per day and never took a day off. I asked for one day off because I was leaving town and I basically had a meeting with the partner and the associate about how I'm lazy. The senior associate however takes two days off about every two weeks.
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Basically not inviting you to meetings, then giving you assignments (without giving you important facts and details. Also, when you ask the senior associate to look through your work before a client meeting, he/she fails to do so even though its their job. The partner who is sleeping with the associate proceeds to blame you for this even though you do not have experience with this particular area of law.
I also normally billed eight hours per day and never took a day off. I asked for one day off because I was leaving town and I basically had a meeting with the partner and the associate about how I'm lazy. The senior associate however takes two days off about every two weeks.
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therewillbeblood (Jul 29 - 11:00 pm)
That sounds bad but not unbearable yet. I've worked for worse. I would, however, recommend you do as much of your communication as you can via email, always BCCing your personal email account. "Senior Associate, could you please look through the attached materials before the client meeting?"
And are there other partners you can work for?
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That sounds bad but not unbearable yet. I've worked for worse. I would, however, recommend you do as much of your communication as you can via email, always BCCing your personal email account. "Senior Associate, could you please look through the attached materials before the client meeting?"
And are there other partners you can work for?
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sazerac (Jul 29 - 10:53 pm)
I would quit a legal job because of a bad environment but it would have to be really bad for me to quit without something else lined up.
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I would quit a legal job because of a bad environment but it would have to be really bad for me to quit without something else lined up.
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therewillbeblood (Jul 29 - 11:01 pm)
Yes, I have quit because of a bad environment (and spent the following year and 3 months unemployed, and yes, it was STILL worth it to quit), but it has to be really, really bad.
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Yes, I have quit because of a bad environment (and spent the following year and 3 months unemployed, and yes, it was STILL worth it to quit), but it has to be really, really bad.
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AJRESQ (Jul 29 - 11:17 pm)
Depends.
How much $ are you making? How is your skill set? What type of book do you have? Critically... is the senior associate hot enough to justify letting her run the firm? (as I, in a show of sexism, immediately assume it's a male boss and female senior associate.)
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Depends.
How much $ are you making? How is your skill set? What type of book do you have? Critically... is the senior associate hot enough to justify letting her run the firm? (as I, in a show of sexism, immediately assume it's a male boss and female senior associate.)
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texlaw (Jul 29 - 11:56 pm)
I would ignore it unless it threatened my ability to practice law according to my own standards of competence/excellence. If I wasn't in danger of committing malpractice because of it or losing my reputation with my clients/colleagues, I wouldn't quit unless I had another job lined up.
I was in a situation something like that--but worse--at the last law job I had, and I honestly wish I had slugged it out. I've not been able to find legal employment since that happened in early 2008, and that's with 10 solid years of experience on a good resume.
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I would ignore it unless it threatened my ability to practice law according to my own standards of competence/excellence. If I wasn't in danger of committing malpractice because of it or losing my reputation with my clients/colleagues, I wouldn't quit unless I had another job lined up.
I was in a situation something like that--but worse--at the last law job I had, and I honestly wish I had slugged it out. I've not been able to find legal employment since that happened in early 2008, and that's with 10 solid years of experience on a good resume.
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scalia (Jul 30 - 12:42 am)
I'm a fairly new attorney and making $70K. I did pretty well in law school and always have been somewhat lucky with finding jobs. The crazy thing is that the senior associate is extremely unattractive. I'm not just saying this to be mean but she would be considered unattractive by everyone's standards. There might be issues because I myself am a young female and went to a much better school than the senior associate.
I have been applying for other jobs and have been lucky to get several interviews. So far I have received an offer to do contract work that pays decent. The senior associate is allowed to run the firm because she acts like she is extremely qualified when in fact I have heard clients complain about her work product.
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I'm a fairly new attorney and making $70K. I did pretty well in law school and always have been somewhat lucky with finding jobs. The crazy thing is that the senior associate is extremely unattractive. I'm not just saying this to be mean but she would be considered unattractive by everyone's standards. There might be issues because I myself am a young female and went to a much better school than the senior associate.
I have been applying for other jobs and have been lucky to get several interviews. So far I have received an offer to do contract work that pays decent. The senior associate is allowed to run the firm because she acts like she is extremely qualified when in fact I have heard clients complain about her work product.
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dwismos (Jul 30 - 1:03 am)
Don't quit until you find a solid full time gig. This economy is unforgiving.
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Don't quit until you find a solid full time gig. This economy is unforgiving.
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superttthero (Jul 30 - 1:15 am)
Without something lined up I would never, especially ITE, leave a job because of a "bad environment."
Now, what goes beyond environment are threats to your license and work that makes you feel like a worthless human being (i.e. scamming people).
I have let jobs without something lined up due to feeling like all I was doing was taking advantage of poors in SHITimmigration, and even with many months of unemployment, it was worth it.
ITE, you bite the bullet and work until something else comes up. If you can't find something else while you have the motivation of a hated job on your back, you're not going to find anything when you get to sleep in, have too much time on your hands, and when depression from unemployment sets in.
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Without something lined up I would never, especially ITE, leave a job because of a "bad environment."
Now, what goes beyond environment are threats to your license and work that makes you feel like a worthless human being (i.e. scamming people).
I have let jobs without something lined up due to feeling like all I was doing was taking advantage of poors in SHITimmigration, and even with many months of unemployment, it was worth it.
ITE, you bite the bullet and work until something else comes up. If you can't find something else while you have the motivation of a hated job on your back, you're not going to find anything when you get to sleep in, have too much time on your hands, and when depression from unemployment sets in.
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ephemeride (Jul 30 - 11:09 am)
Quit if you feel you're sacrificing your integrity. Better to eat ramen noodles and be able to sleep at night than sell your soul for filthy lucre.
If the boss is just inept, then stay, do the best you can, and keep collecting a paycheck in this economy.
One time in class I had a professor tell me about a kid who got crushed by a school bus driver- medicals bills alone were like 500k. Liability was clear, but because of a state law, the state was only limited to paying 10k or something. He was representing the school, so he wrote the parents of the little boy a 10k check and asked us how we thought he felt about it.
I told him I bet he had trouble sleeping that night. He asked why. I said- without thinking- that if he had to ask the question, he obviously didn't have any trouble sleeping that night.
He didn't like me much after that- not to say that what he did wasn't done with integrity- only that lawyers eventually harden themselves, which costs them relationships, livers, and most of their sanity.
Always keep a part of yourself intact, and defend that part with your life. Because that's exactly what it is.
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Quit if you feel you're sacrificing your integrity. Better to eat ramen noodles and be able to sleep at night than sell your soul for filthy lucre.
If the boss is just inept, then stay, do the best you can, and keep collecting a paycheck in this economy.
One time in class I had a professor tell me about a kid who got crushed by a school bus driver- medicals bills alone were like 500k. Liability was clear, but because of a state law, the state was only limited to paying 10k or something. He was representing the school, so he wrote the parents of the little boy a 10k check and asked us how we thought he felt about it.
I told him I bet he had trouble sleeping that night. He asked why. I said- without thinking- that if he had to ask the question, he obviously didn't have any trouble sleeping that night.
He didn't like me much after that- not to say that what he did wasn't done with integrity- only that lawyers eventually harden themselves, which costs them relationships, livers, and most of their sanity.
Always keep a part of yourself intact, and defend that part with your life. Because that's exactly what it is.
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aknas (Jul 30 - 5:19 pm)
if you voluntarily quit then you'd be unqualified for unemployment compensation.
Just goes to show that a JD makes you stupider than a laid-off union louse.
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if you voluntarily quit then you'd be unqualified for unemployment compensation.
Just goes to show that a JD makes you stupider than a laid-off union louse.
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AJRESQ (Jul 30 - 5:41 pm)
Here is my question...
Why don't you just start banging the boss and take over the firm yourself?
Also, I would just look for another job if you hate it that much. Quit when you line something else up.
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Here is my question...
Why don't you just start banging the boss and take over the firm yourself?
Also, I would just look for another job if you hate it that much. Quit when you line something else up.
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scalia (Jul 30 - 6:04 pm)
Haha I'd rather take unemployment than bang that dork! The firm has an office in another city and I sometimes do work for the other partners and had a great experience. Sadly, I cannot switch offices since they just hired an associate for their office. They don't have a clue as to what is happening with the partner/associate at my office. She even tries to micro manage me when I'm doing work for the other partners by constantly sending me emails asking me when I will have time to do work (like work for them doesn't constitute work.
I am looking for other jobs for sure. The sad thing is that I'm working in the exact area of law that I wanted to practice. However, I get zero feedback just passive aggressive vibes and its extremely difficult to get better at my job or even learn.
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Haha I'd rather take unemployment than bang that dork! The firm has an office in another city and I sometimes do work for the other partners and had a great experience. Sadly, I cannot switch offices since they just hired an associate for their office. They don't have a clue as to what is happening with the partner/associate at my office. She even tries to micro manage me when I'm doing work for the other partners by constantly sending me emails asking me when I will have time to do work (like work for them doesn't constitute work.
I am looking for other jobs for sure. The sad thing is that I'm working in the exact area of law that I wanted to practice. However, I get zero feedback just passive aggressive vibes and its extremely difficult to get better at my job or even learn.
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AJRESQ (Jul 30 - 6:12 pm)
Sounds like you need to bang the partners at the other office...
Kidding aside, you might be running the risk of getting canned. Is there anyone over this partner's head who you can discuss these issues with? You gotta be careful there, though, because that partner probably has relationships with clients and you are much more expendable than he is.
Any idea why this associate doesn't like you? Does she do this to everyone or just you?
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Sounds like you need to bang the partners at the other office...
Kidding aside, you might be running the risk of getting canned. Is there anyone over this partner's head who you can discuss these issues with? You gotta be careful there, though, because that partner probably has relationships with clients and you are much more expendable than he is.
Any idea why this associate doesn't like you? Does she do this to everyone or just you?
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scalia (Jul 30 - 6:31 pm)
Yeah although the other partners like me I don't think I should discuss it with them. The partner I work with is highly respected so there is no point. She does not do it to anyone who has more power than her (other sr. associates or partners) but I"m new at the firm. I assumed I would be working directly with the partner but he has mentally checked out and basically told me my first week that I will work directly with her.
She does not like me because she did not want him to hire another associate. Basically she wants to be the one who does everything. For example I had to draft a memorandum for another partner and he gave me great feedback. About an hour later she had emailed me to tell me it was a shitty memorandum and she would have to edit it.
It might also be competition for her because I"m also a female, younger than she is, went to a better school, and did better than her in school.
She is the type of person that thinks she is special because she has worked in law for a few years. However, I think there is an inferiority complex issue here since she went to a crappy school and has probably never received all that much attention before (looks wise).
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Yeah although the other partners like me I don't think I should discuss it with them. The partner I work with is highly respected so there is no point. She does not do it to anyone who has more power than her (other sr. associates or partners) but I"m new at the firm. I assumed I would be working directly with the partner but he has mentally checked out and basically told me my first week that I will work directly with her.
She does not like me because she did not want him to hire another associate. Basically she wants to be the one who does everything. For example I had to draft a memorandum for another partner and he gave me great feedback. About an hour later she had emailed me to tell me it was a shitty memorandum and she would have to edit it.
It might also be competition for her because I"m also a female, younger than she is, went to a better school, and did better than her in school.
She is the type of person that thinks she is special because she has worked in law for a few years. However, I think there is an inferiority complex issue here since she went to a crappy school and has probably never received all that much attention before (looks wise).
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AJRESQ (Jul 30 - 7:03 pm)
I'm guessing you haven't been licensed that long. Once you actually have a job, in my experience, I don't think people put much stock into where you went to law school and what kind of grades you got. Those kinds of things get you a job, but once you are hired, that's pretty much that.
Or I don't know, maybe that's how people from T1 law schools think...?
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I'm guessing you haven't been licensed that long. Once you actually have a job, in my experience, I don't think people put much stock into where you went to law school and what kind of grades you got. Those kinds of things get you a job, but once you are hired, that's pretty much that.
Or I don't know, maybe that's how people from T1 law schools think...?
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texlaw (Jul 30 - 8:07 pm)
What you're going through is very typical. Very. In my experience, if a partner is reasonable and nice to work for, there's a hedge of backstabbing, conniving associates around him or her trying to keep anyone else from "succeeding" with that partner.
Just keep your head down, ignore her bullshit to the greatest extent possible, don't let ANYONE know how you're feeling, and learn all you can. Become the best lawyer you possibly can at your current position and keep looking for something better. You're learning, if even by trial and error. Nobody, but nobody, is going to coddle and train you in law. They throw you in the deep end and it's survival of the fittest after that. I'm telling you, situations with dynamics like you're in are more common than not in law, unfortunately.
I worked for a firm with about 13 associates and every damn one of them was like that to the greatest extent they could get away with. I was very fortunate in my position and I truly wasn't that way, but everybody else was. I was glad I didn't have to work with them.
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What you're going through is very typical. Very. In my experience, if a partner is reasonable and nice to work for, there's a hedge of backstabbing, conniving associates around him or her trying to keep anyone else from "succeeding" with that partner.
Just keep your head down, ignore her bullshit to the greatest extent possible, don't let ANYONE know how you're feeling, and learn all you can. Become the best lawyer you possibly can at your current position and keep looking for something better. You're learning, if even by trial and error. Nobody, but nobody, is going to coddle and train you in law. They throw you in the deep end and it's survival of the fittest after that. I'm telling you, situations with dynamics like you're in are more common than not in law, unfortunately.
I worked for a firm with about 13 associates and every damn one of them was like that to the greatest extent they could get away with. I was very fortunate in my position and I truly wasn't that way, but everybody else was. I was glad I didn't have to work with them.
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whipster (Jul 30 - 6:48 pm)
Look for another gig now. Get out of there because it will NEVER get better.
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Look for another gig now. Get out of there because it will NEVER get better.
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scalia (Jul 30 - 7:11 pm)
Maybe. However, if she felt so secure would she really need to sleep with someone 30 years older? Maybe that's just part of the legal practice and I'm jut too naive to realize that.
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Maybe. However, if she felt so secure would she really need to sleep with someone 30 years older? Maybe that's just part of the legal practice and I'm jut too naive to realize that.
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AJRESQ (Jul 30 - 7:31 pm)
I think you're right in that she's insecure.
However, I doubt it has anything to do with where she went to law school. The best trial lawyer I've ever met went to Capital Law School; partner at a major law firm. I hadn't ever heard of it until I met him.
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I think you're right in that she's insecure.
However, I doubt it has anything to do with where she went to law school. The best trial lawyer I've ever met went to Capital Law School; partner at a major law firm. I hadn't ever heard of it until I met him.
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texlaw (Jul 30 - 8:10 pm)
It doesn't matter why she does what she does. Of course it comes from insecurity. Who cares why she's insecure? Your best move would be to befriend her and win her loyalty if that's possible, but I realize it's probably not. And that doesn't mean that you did anything to cause or justify her bullshit. It's just how some people are.
One of the best pieces of advice I've heard in reference to dealing with people in business (and at work) is that there are two ways to have the biggest building. One is to build the biggest building. The other is to tear every other building down.
Some people are just in the "tearing everyone else" down business, and there are an abundance of those kinds of people in law. You just have to know that's what they're doing and work around them. Succeed in spite of their best efforts to cause you to fail. It sucks. But it's reality.
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It doesn't matter why she does what she does. Of course it comes from insecurity. Who cares why she's insecure? Your best move would be to befriend her and win her loyalty if that's possible, but I realize it's probably not. And that doesn't mean that you did anything to cause or justify her bullshit. It's just how some people are.
One of the best pieces of advice I've heard in reference to dealing with people in business (and at work) is that there are two ways to have the biggest building. One is to build the biggest building. The other is to tear every other building down.
Some people are just in the "tearing everyone else" down business, and there are an abundance of those kinds of people in law. You just have to know that's what they're doing and work around them. Succeed in spite of their best efforts to cause you to fail. It sucks. But it's reality.
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DopeSmokerEsquire (Jul 30 - 8:33 pm)
I quit my first atty job b/c of a bad work environment. I won't get into how bad, but it was bad enough for ME to want to leave. Only you can decide how muchg bs you can put up with.
It took me 3 months to find another job. This was in 2007
WHen i quit, i had no debt of any king (no student loans, no mortgage), and savings. I was also willing to work at any job to get by. I didn't care.
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I quit my first atty job b/c of a bad work environment. I won't get into how bad, but it was bad enough for ME to want to leave. Only you can decide how muchg bs you can put up with.
It took me 3 months to find another job. This was in 2007
WHen i quit, i had no debt of any king (no student loans, no mortgage), and savings. I was also willing to work at any job to get by. I didn't care.
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wolfman (Jul 30 - 8:52 pm)
I'm at a point in the gradual becoming-a-nobody's-fool-lowlife process where I won't quit any job, no matter how bad. Let them fire my ass, so I can collect unemployment (if you leave voluntarily, you get squat). Only quit if the only other alternative is hanging from the ceiling (and not in the fun way).
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I'm at a point in the gradual becoming-a-nobody's-fool-lowlife process where I won't quit any job, no matter how bad. Let them fire my ass, so I can collect unemployment (if you leave voluntarily, you get squat). Only quit if the only other alternative is hanging from the ceiling (and not in the fun way).
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AJRESQ (Jul 30 - 9:45 pm)
The easy solution is to just get her out and booze her up. You'll be best buds the next day.
I had a relationship like that with someone once. We both hated each other, sort of arbitrarily. Then we drank together and it was totally cool.
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Post a message in this threadThe easy solution is to just get her out and booze her up. You'll be best buds the next day.
I had a relationship like that with someone once. We both hated each other, sort of arbitrarily. Then we drank together and it was totally cool.
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