So, Concord Law School, The Online Law School. WTF?
dwismos (Jul 28 - 8:04 pm)
Are schools like this going to be accredited by the ABA eventually? Kaplan is straight up ripping people off.
Reply
Are schools like this going to be accredited by the ABA eventually? Kaplan is straight up ripping people off.
Reply
Frida2 (Jul 28 - 9:17 pm)
We are in a major higher education bubble right now. More and more schools are popping up all the time for law and everything else. It will not stop until the feds stop the free flow of federally guaranteed loans or the majority of people realize that education is just another product and the buyer must beware of ripoffs. I'm a democrat but it makes me sick when Obama says everyone needs to go to college. That sounds like when Bush was still pushing home ownership for all in 2005.
Reply
We are in a major higher education bubble right now. More and more schools are popping up all the time for law and everything else. It will not stop until the feds stop the free flow of federally guaranteed loans or the majority of people realize that education is just another product and the buyer must beware of ripoffs. I'm a democrat but it makes me sick when Obama says everyone needs to go to college. That sounds like when Bush was still pushing home ownership for all in 2005.
Reply
Frida2 (Jul 29 - 11:44 pm)
http://nakedlaw.avvo.com/2010/06/8-reasons-college-tuition-is-the-next-bubble-to-burst/
This is a cool tuition bubble article I just found. However it is ironic that it does not specifically talk about law school when it is supposed to be a legal website.
Reply
http://nakedlaw.avvo.com/2010/06/8-reasons-college-tuition-is-the-next-bubble-to-burst/
This is a cool tuition bubble article I just found. However it is ironic that it does not specifically talk about law school when it is supposed to be a legal website.
Reply
Oldster (Jul 28 - 9:25 pm)
New York University School of Law (4/2010) and Harvard Law School (10/2010) are sponsoring a forum on the future of law schools: http://www.nyls.edu/centers/harlan_scholar_centers/institute_for_information_law_and_policy/events/future_ed
Go to the right and click on “video” for the April, 2010 program.
Panel #1, with the Associate General Counsel for United Technologies was provocative in that he wanted to destroy the current law school model.
Panel #2 was more of the same hand-wringing with the suggestion that there is no competitive pressure on law schools to change. About 1 hour into the 2nd program, however, some attendee brought up cost and student loans and a panelist suggested that law schools should be like 5 year architecture programs (ie 4 year BS plus 1 year specialization). Someone also mentioned that law students should be pre-evaluated with a battery of personality and cognitive tests like business executives. The emphasis of the discussion, however, was on the right side (aka “big law” salary) of the bimodal law associate salary distribution graph.
I will continue at a leisurely pace to review the final discussions, but I am not expecting any earth-shattering revelations. What I do know is this: law firm services are being unbundled by customers. A client is someone who has a relationship with you, a customer is someone who wants value for price as per the comments of the UT panelist.
It is now the time to unbundled law school services. If there is a bimodal salary distribution, then there should be a bimodal cost distribution. Somehow, there needs to be an unbundling of law school educational services so that people simply get what they need and go. There certainly needs to be more of a discussion from the consumer side and not the middleman-side.
Reply
New York University School of Law (4/2010) and Harvard Law School (10/2010) are sponsoring a forum on the future of law schools: http://www.nyls.edu/centers/harlan_scholar_centers/institute_for_information_law_and_policy/events/future_ed
Go to the right and click on “video” for the April, 2010 program.
Panel #1, with the Associate General Counsel for United Technologies was provocative in that he wanted to destroy the current law school model.
Panel #2 was more of the same hand-wringing with the suggestion that there is no competitive pressure on law schools to change. About 1 hour into the 2nd program, however, some attendee brought up cost and student loans and a panelist suggested that law schools should be like 5 year architecture programs (ie 4 year BS plus 1 year specialization). Someone also mentioned that law students should be pre-evaluated with a battery of personality and cognitive tests like business executives. The emphasis of the discussion, however, was on the right side (aka “big law” salary) of the bimodal law associate salary distribution graph.
I will continue at a leisurely pace to review the final discussions, but I am not expecting any earth-shattering revelations. What I do know is this: law firm services are being unbundled by customers. A client is someone who has a relationship with you, a customer is someone who wants value for price as per the comments of the UT panelist.
It is now the time to unbundled law school services. If there is a bimodal salary distribution, then there should be a bimodal cost distribution. Somehow, there needs to be an unbundling of law school educational services so that people simply get what they need and go. There certainly needs to be more of a discussion from the consumer side and not the middleman-side.
Reply
therewillbeblood (Jul 29 - 9:34 am)
No problem with destroying the law school model, but where does that leave us? A permanently screwed generation in between the "law-as-secure-career" generation and the new "1 year of student loans" generation?
Reply
No problem with destroying the law school model, but where does that leave us? A permanently screwed generation in between the "law-as-secure-career" generation and the new "1 year of student loans" generation?
Reply
lolcat (Aug 1 - 4:15 pm)
I've been out of the legal world, such as it was, for quite a while. The lingo sure has changed. Back in the day, "unbundling" meant nickle-and-diming your clients by billing them for firm overhead. Google "Skaddenomics."
All the lawyers I've worked with in recent years have allowed me to do leg work; however, the busier they are, the less receptive they are. It's all about the balance of power between lawyers and clients. Presently, the balance is with the clients.
That brings me to law schools. They call the shots because even toilets have more applicants than seats. There will never be unbundled educational services unless it suits the school's interest.
Reply
I've been out of the legal world, such as it was, for quite a while. The lingo sure has changed. Back in the day, "unbundling" meant nickle-and-diming your clients by billing them for firm overhead. Google "Skaddenomics."
All the lawyers I've worked with in recent years have allowed me to do leg work; however, the busier they are, the less receptive they are. It's all about the balance of power between lawyers and clients. Presently, the balance is with the clients.
That brings me to law schools. They call the shots because even toilets have more applicants than seats. There will never be unbundled educational services unless it suits the school's interest.
Reply
Donald13 (Jul 29 - 10:45 pm)
I know I will take some heat for saying this, but I do hope online schools like Concord get ABA accredidation. Concord only charges $10k a year. Seton hall is over $40k. I would like to go to law school, but $150k is just way too much to attend a TTT. If online schools entered the market, you could see significant downward pressure on tuition.
Reply
I know I will take some heat for saying this, but I do hope online schools like Concord get ABA accredidation. Concord only charges $10k a year. Seton hall is over $40k. I would like to go to law school, but $150k is just way too much to attend a TTT. If online schools entered the market, you could see significant downward pressure on tuition.
Reply
dwismos (Jul 29 - 10:52 pm)
I guess, if you just want to be one of the many struggling lawyers out there. It would certainly be easier to manage the debt, but it still wouldn't be that great.
Reply
I guess, if you just want to be one of the many struggling lawyers out there. It would certainly be easier to manage the debt, but it still wouldn't be that great.
Reply
johndoeee (Jul 29 - 10:56 pm)
Donald,
I agree man. It's 4x less than a B&M (brick and mortar) law school.
Won't kill someone who goes there. You could work and pay the tuition and come out with no debt. These schools are just scamming students with the unbelievable tuition they are charging now, which averages about $40K.
The education provided means little.
Only the top 5% find good work. The same would be true from any law school, including a school like Concord, thanks to the oversupply of lawyers.
Brass tacks, $3 grand for BarBri (or whatever they are charging today..) teaches you all you need to know about law to pass a Bar and be a licensed attorney.
The books at Columbia are the same as NYLS.
Your not paying for an education in law, just pedigree really.
At least with an online school, you could come out with no debt and enter the "profession" in the hope of finding a niche in some area and working towards some sense of a manageable future and a career that isn't saddled with life-changing debt.
Yup, you'd still be among the Unwashed Masses but starting with no debt means a lot. Not much better off in terms of job prospects but can have a reasonable Game Plan for life if law does not work out as intended.
Reply
Donald,
I agree man. It's 4x less than a B&M (brick and mortar) law school.
Won't kill someone who goes there. You could work and pay the tuition and come out with no debt. These schools are just scamming students with the unbelievable tuition they are charging now, which averages about $40K.
The education provided means little.
Only the top 5% find good work. The same would be true from any law school, including a school like Concord, thanks to the oversupply of lawyers.
Brass tacks, $3 grand for BarBri (or whatever they are charging today..) teaches you all you need to know about law to pass a Bar and be a licensed attorney.
The books at Columbia are the same as NYLS.
Your not paying for an education in law, just pedigree really.
At least with an online school, you could come out with no debt and enter the "profession" in the hope of finding a niche in some area and working towards some sense of a manageable future and a career that isn't saddled with life-changing debt.
Yup, you'd still be among the Unwashed Masses but starting with no debt means a lot. Not much better off in terms of job prospects but can have a reasonable Game Plan for life if law does not work out as intended.
Reply
Donald13 (Jul 29 - 11:06 pm)
ABA Standard 306, which governs distance learning, is going to be revised this fall. Anyone have any idea whether they will change it to allow for all online ABA accredited law schools?
Reply
ABA Standard 306, which governs distance learning, is going to be revised this fall. Anyone have any idea whether they will change it to allow for all online ABA accredited law schools?
Reply
therewillbeblood (Jul 29 - 11:30 pm)
Hopefully no. I think the law school model is in bad enough shape without it.
Reply
Hopefully no. I think the law school model is in bad enough shape without it.
Reply
EmmanuelGoldstein (Jul 30 - 12:01 am)
I SUSPECT THAT IN THIS ECONOMY THAT A LOT OF GRAD STUDENTS ARE USING STUDENT LOANS AS A WAY TO AVOID HOMELESSNESS. SO ANY POST IN A STORM--A MATTER OF SURVIVAL.
Reply
I SUSPECT THAT IN THIS ECONOMY THAT A LOT OF GRAD STUDENTS ARE USING STUDENT LOANS AS A WAY TO AVOID HOMELESSNESS. SO ANY POST IN A STORM--A MATTER OF SURVIVAL.
Reply
causanortis (Jul 30 - 12:45 am)
I think opening up ever more law schools (especially online law schools) so that even more people can go further into debt with very little chances of ever securing gainful employment is an excellent idea.
Reply
I think opening up ever more law schools (especially online law schools) so that even more people can go further into debt with very little chances of ever securing gainful employment is an excellent idea.
Reply
dwismos (Jul 30 - 12:49 am)
Yeah, but everybody believes that they will succeed while others may not do so well.
Reply
Yeah, but everybody believes that they will succeed while others may not do so well.
Reply
causanortis (Jul 30 - 12:59 am)
True but the fact is many simply will not succeed, there are simply not enough jobs. Why not increase the misery and ensure the the financial ruin of thousands more, all in the name of pursuing elusive promises that will never come to fruition.
Reply
Post a message in this threadTrue but the fact is many simply will not succeed, there are simply not enough jobs. Why not increase the misery and ensure the the financial ruin of thousands more, all in the name of pursuing elusive promises that will never come to fruition.
Reply