Loser T1 3L, what do?
SoDespondent (Jul 27 - 3:29 pm)
Sup gang, inaugural post here so please bear with me. I'm seriously contemplating dropping out before 3L year, but I want some brutally honest advice. I know, I was a fucking idiot not to drop out a year ago. I believed career services, what can I say.
Based on newly-released grade information, I'm third quartile at a T25 (a/k/a hopeless loser bound for homeless drug addiction). National Moot Court, state trial court internship, nothing really spectacular on the resume.
I'm contemplating dropping out and trying to get into Air Force OTS. I hear it's "tough" in this economy, but it's still easier than JAG. Would love to get JAG and am going to sit for as many boards while I can if I stick around for 3L year, but not getting my hopes up. Best fall-back plan is honestly to try and join air force as a regular officer after law school, but pay is lower than JAG so that sucks.
Would try for Army JAG because I hear it's less selective, but I hear their deployments last like 16 or 18 months. GF will probably bone some other dude during that time and/or I will go insane in the desert.
If I stuck around in 3L, I would try to land a shitcourt clerkship out in a rural area, but I'm guessing even those few that are open will be really competitive, and I just don't have the numbers. I need me a jerb, and military seems like the last place I have a decent shot. Plus, when the country eventually collapses, it would be a swell way to get in on the ground floor with the inevitable military junta that comes to power.
In this shitty economy, anything steady for about 40k a year seems like gold to me. I've got no problem with carpet-bombing a-rabs or being stuck in Enid, Oklahoma for years, as long as I draw some kind of salary.
So this is the real question I'm wrestling with during this purgatory of a summer: do I cut my losses now and apply for ANY job, most likely military grunt, or gamble with an additional 30k of debt on the off-chance I land JAG or a state trial court clerkship in the boondocks?
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Sup gang, inaugural post here so please bear with me. I'm seriously contemplating dropping out before 3L year, but I want some brutally honest advice. I know, I was a fucking idiot not to drop out a year ago. I believed career services, what can I say.
Based on newly-released grade information, I'm third quartile at a T25 (a/k/a hopeless loser bound for homeless drug addiction). National Moot Court, state trial court internship, nothing really spectacular on the resume.
I'm contemplating dropping out and trying to get into Air Force OTS. I hear it's "tough" in this economy, but it's still easier than JAG. Would love to get JAG and am going to sit for as many boards while I can if I stick around for 3L year, but not getting my hopes up. Best fall-back plan is honestly to try and join air force as a regular officer after law school, but pay is lower than JAG so that sucks.
Would try for Army JAG because I hear it's less selective, but I hear their deployments last like 16 or 18 months. GF will probably bone some other dude during that time and/or I will go insane in the desert.
If I stuck around in 3L, I would try to land a shitcourt clerkship out in a rural area, but I'm guessing even those few that are open will be really competitive, and I just don't have the numbers. I need me a jerb, and military seems like the last place I have a decent shot. Plus, when the country eventually collapses, it would be a swell way to get in on the ground floor with the inevitable military junta that comes to power.
In this shitty economy, anything steady for about 40k a year seems like gold to me. I've got no problem with carpet-bombing a-rabs or being stuck in Enid, Oklahoma for years, as long as I draw some kind of salary.
So this is the real question I'm wrestling with during this purgatory of a summer: do I cut my losses now and apply for ANY job, most likely military grunt, or gamble with an additional 30k of debt on the off-chance I land JAG or a state trial court clerkship in the boondocks?
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therewillbeblood (Jul 27 - 3:34 pm)
Ehh, 30k doesn't sound THAT bad. I would stick it out. Have you calculated what that will mean in terms of how much more you'll be paying per month?
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Ehh, 30k doesn't sound THAT bad. I would stick it out. Have you calculated what that will mean in terms of how much more you'll be paying per month?
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Schlomo (Jul 29 - 8:14 pm)
"Best fall-back plan is honestly to try and join air force as a regular officer after law school, but pay is lower than JAG so that sucks."
From what I understand, JAGs don't receive any sort of special pay that non-JAG officers don't. As far as I ever knew the only 'educated' officer career fields that received special pay were the medical fields or else pilots. JAGs are not seen as anything special retention-wise. While it may be the case that under JAG you enter at a higher rank (02 instead of 01) I'm not sure that's such a huge deal considering that a non-JAG officer will make the same rank in not too long anyway.
As I posted before in another thread, there are so many career fields for an officer that JAG would actually be one of my last choices, since it is so narrow and won't really set you up to make good money on the outside as much of your experience may be menial BS like kicking out shitbird enlisted airmen for pissing hot on drug tests or domestic violence.
Personally I would recommend trying to go into the Air Force (or even the Army or Navy; they all have it) as a contracting/acquisition officer. They will send you through school to learn the federal acquisition regulations (FAR) and contracting process, which means that after four or eight years of experience you will have a guaranteed job waiting for you with either a federal government contractor or the government itself. There is MAJOR money in government contracting and the field is guaranteed to keep growing. Not to mention, you will not have to be driving convoys through Kandahar and you will actually be able to use your JD. Going back into the military as a contracting officer was actually my fallback plan if I wasn't able to find a decent civilian gig.
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"Best fall-back plan is honestly to try and join air force as a regular officer after law school, but pay is lower than JAG so that sucks."
From what I understand, JAGs don't receive any sort of special pay that non-JAG officers don't. As far as I ever knew the only 'educated' officer career fields that received special pay were the medical fields or else pilots. JAGs are not seen as anything special retention-wise. While it may be the case that under JAG you enter at a higher rank (02 instead of 01) I'm not sure that's such a huge deal considering that a non-JAG officer will make the same rank in not too long anyway.
As I posted before in another thread, there are so many career fields for an officer that JAG would actually be one of my last choices, since it is so narrow and won't really set you up to make good money on the outside as much of your experience may be menial BS like kicking out shitbird enlisted airmen for pissing hot on drug tests or domestic violence.
Personally I would recommend trying to go into the Air Force (or even the Army or Navy; they all have it) as a contracting/acquisition officer. They will send you through school to learn the federal acquisition regulations (FAR) and contracting process, which means that after four or eight years of experience you will have a guaranteed job waiting for you with either a federal government contractor or the government itself. There is MAJOR money in government contracting and the field is guaranteed to keep growing. Not to mention, you will not have to be driving convoys through Kandahar and you will actually be able to use your JD. Going back into the military as a contracting officer was actually my fallback plan if I wasn't able to find a decent civilian gig.
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SoDespondent (Jul 29 - 9:33 pm)
As a regular OTS candidate, I'd enter as a O-1 and stay that way for like 18 months. JAGs start at O-2 and get bumped to O-3 after six months, which is a significant pay advantage over still being an O-1. You won't make O-3 until four years in if you just go plain old OTS, from what I understand. Plus, JAG now has three years' worth of loan repayment incentives that aren't available to regular OTS candidates.
As far as exit options, don't you get the same veterans' preference regardless of what type of officer you were? I haven't heard anything that suggests ex-JAGs aren't able to dig themselves a nice little rut somewhere on the General Schedule, if they want.
That is good advice re: contracting/acquisition. I'll definitely look into that.
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As a regular OTS candidate, I'd enter as a O-1 and stay that way for like 18 months. JAGs start at O-2 and get bumped to O-3 after six months, which is a significant pay advantage over still being an O-1. You won't make O-3 until four years in if you just go plain old OTS, from what I understand. Plus, JAG now has three years' worth of loan repayment incentives that aren't available to regular OTS candidates.
As far as exit options, don't you get the same veterans' preference regardless of what type of officer you were? I haven't heard anything that suggests ex-JAGs aren't able to dig themselves a nice little rut somewhere on the General Schedule, if they want.
That is good advice re: contracting/acquisition. I'll definitely look into that.
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Schlomo (Jul 30 - 12:31 am)
I see, I didn't realize that it took that long to reach 0-3. It seemed like all the butterbars I knew made it pretty quickly, but then again it may have been four years.
It's true that you do get the vet's preference no matter what the career field, but the vet's preference alone won't get you a job that pays decently (i.e., anything GS-11 or up). For those positions you have to have the specific experience they're looking for or your resume will be tossed. All the vet's preference will do is let you apply as a status candidate for positions that aren't open to the general public, which is great but as I said you still need to have the specific experience. Like I said, if I were you I would look at contracting as opposed to JAG, because even if the initial pay turns out to be less, you are far more likely to get a nice high-paying gig upon separating with endless room to move up and around. USAJOBS is teeming with contract specialist positions with possible salaries up into the mid-six figures. Compare that with the maybe 10 attorney positions on USAJOBS that every TTTer in the country is applying for, veterans included.
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I see, I didn't realize that it took that long to reach 0-3. It seemed like all the butterbars I knew made it pretty quickly, but then again it may have been four years.
It's true that you do get the vet's preference no matter what the career field, but the vet's preference alone won't get you a job that pays decently (i.e., anything GS-11 or up). For those positions you have to have the specific experience they're looking for or your resume will be tossed. All the vet's preference will do is let you apply as a status candidate for positions that aren't open to the general public, which is great but as I said you still need to have the specific experience. Like I said, if I were you I would look at contracting as opposed to JAG, because even if the initial pay turns out to be less, you are far more likely to get a nice high-paying gig upon separating with endless room to move up and around. USAJOBS is teeming with contract specialist positions with possible salaries up into the mid-six figures. Compare that with the maybe 10 attorney positions on USAJOBS that every TTTer in the country is applying for, veterans included.
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SoDespondent (Jul 27 - 3:35 pm)
I would do IBR, so it wouldn't end up being so bad.
I'm not really expecting to get a lawyer gig, so if I end up having to join the Air Force after graduating, I will be pissed at myself for borrowing all this money to get a job I could have done with just a college degree. At this point, any extra student loans really are a turn off.
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I would do IBR, so it wouldn't end up being so bad.
I'm not really expecting to get a lawyer gig, so if I end up having to join the Air Force after graduating, I will be pissed at myself for borrowing all this money to get a job I could have done with just a college degree. At this point, any extra student loans really are a turn off.
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greenhorn (Jul 27 - 3:46 pm)
Well any officer program (OCS, OTS) will take approximately one year to process you. So if today you apply to the USAF OTS, between medicals, interviews, background checks, etc it will be approximately one year before you actually attend OTS. For that one year what would you do ?
As much as I hate to say it you are probably better off finishing law school during that year and applying to OCS/OTS or the JAG corps.
Why AF ? Do you anticipate getting accepted into the aviation program ? Thats one helluva tough program to get into.
Good luck in whatever you choose. I like the way you write (a bit funny) and hope the best for you.
What is your total debt load ?
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Well any officer program (OCS, OTS) will take approximately one year to process you. So if today you apply to the USAF OTS, between medicals, interviews, background checks, etc it will be approximately one year before you actually attend OTS. For that one year what would you do ?
As much as I hate to say it you are probably better off finishing law school during that year and applying to OCS/OTS or the JAG corps.
Why AF ? Do you anticipate getting accepted into the aviation program ? Thats one helluva tough program to get into.
Good luck in whatever you choose. I like the way you write (a bit funny) and hope the best for you.
What is your total debt load ?
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SoDespondent (Jul 27 - 4:02 pm)
A whole year? Jesus. So I suppose I should start applying once classes resume, just to get a jump on all of that processing time.
I was leaning AF because word on the street is they have the shortest deployments and best "quality of life" (most on-base golf courses, most time in between haircuts, etc.).
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A whole year? Jesus. So I suppose I should start applying once classes resume, just to get a jump on all of that processing time.
I was leaning AF because word on the street is they have the shortest deployments and best "quality of life" (most on-base golf courses, most time in between haircuts, etc.).
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causanortis (Jul 27 - 3:39 pm)
Imho
you're already well over your head, and might as well finish what you started no matter how unbearable. You have likely already amassed over 60k in debt, and if you pull out now, you'll have absolutely nothing to show for it. Hell do nothing but read hornbooks and course outlines to pass finals. OCS will still be there when you graduate, but you'll have more bargaining power with a jd behind your name.
Whatever you do, DO NOT QUIT law school until you got something solid lined up.. Don't quit law school with the mentality that you can get accepted to Air Force OCS, without first even being accepted. Don't bank on doing things that don't currently exist, you are not even entirely sure are realistic options.
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Imho
you're already well over your head, and might as well finish what you started no matter how unbearable. You have likely already amassed over 60k in debt, and if you pull out now, you'll have absolutely nothing to show for it. Hell do nothing but read hornbooks and course outlines to pass finals. OCS will still be there when you graduate, but you'll have more bargaining power with a jd behind your name.
Whatever you do, DO NOT QUIT law school until you got something solid lined up.. Don't quit law school with the mentality that you can get accepted to Air Force OCS, without first even being accepted. Don't bank on doing things that don't currently exist, you are not even entirely sure are realistic options.
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headofshit (Jul 27 - 3:55 pm)
I was in the same boat when I graduated in 2007. T1 school, top 75% of class, unspectacular, if non-traditional resume (32 at graduation, background abroad as journalist and English teacher). The only thing I had going for me was a lot of foreign language skills.
You'll have to try a lot of different things, and do a lot of work for free. The people you get to know volunteering will be invaluable, and you'll have access to a lot of free training and materials working pro bono.
Three years out, I'm actually feeling optimistic about my solo immigration practice. It's a world away from what I thought I'd be doing when I started law school, but in a few years I think I'll actually be comfortable and enjoy what I'm doing.
The most negative voices here (that would be most of them) are hidebound sads who feel entitled to $160,000 a year because they got JDs, or because they have debt. Fuck 'em.
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I was in the same boat when I graduated in 2007. T1 school, top 75% of class, unspectacular, if non-traditional resume (32 at graduation, background abroad as journalist and English teacher). The only thing I had going for me was a lot of foreign language skills.
You'll have to try a lot of different things, and do a lot of work for free. The people you get to know volunteering will be invaluable, and you'll have access to a lot of free training and materials working pro bono.
Three years out, I'm actually feeling optimistic about my solo immigration practice. It's a world away from what I thought I'd be doing when I started law school, but in a few years I think I'll actually be comfortable and enjoy what I'm doing.
The most negative voices here (that would be most of them) are hidebound sads who feel entitled to $160,000 a year because they got JDs, or because they have debt. Fuck 'em.
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greenhorn (Jul 27 - 4:19 pm)
AF does have the best "quality of life" of all the branches. It might be matched by the Coast Guard...I think the AF and CG are pretty much neck in neck with respect to quality of life. The CG though has far fewer openings for officers so its more selective.
There was a thread on here not too long ago discussing the merits of which military branch to join and several service members who post here said the AF and CG has it the best.
I almost went CG or Navy OCS, back when it would have been easier to get in. I really regret it.
And BTW if you go to a T25 law school, you're not a looser. I'm a looser, I went to a TTTT. lol
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AF does have the best "quality of life" of all the branches. It might be matched by the Coast Guard...I think the AF and CG are pretty much neck in neck with respect to quality of life. The CG though has far fewer openings for officers so its more selective.
There was a thread on here not too long ago discussing the merits of which military branch to join and several service members who post here said the AF and CG has it the best.
I almost went CG or Navy OCS, back when it would have been easier to get in. I really regret it.
And BTW if you go to a T25 law school, you're not a looser. I'm a looser, I went to a TTTT. lol
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Emalienko (Jul 27 - 4:44 pm)
You will be the biggest douche in the world if you quit now. The time to quit was after your first semester. You are 2/3 done, you would be an idiot to quit now. As others have said, you will have debt and nothing to show for it. You will regret it for the rest of your life, and hey, the AF will still be there in one year, except you will look like a much better candidate than if you were to quit, otherwise you would like a looser quitting douche.
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You will be the biggest douche in the world if you quit now. The time to quit was after your first semester. You are 2/3 done, you would be an idiot to quit now. As others have said, you will have debt and nothing to show for it. You will regret it for the rest of your life, and hey, the AF will still be there in one year, except you will look like a much better candidate than if you were to quit, otherwise you would like a looser quitting douche.
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descartes (Jul 27 - 4:58 pm)
First of all, your post reads a lot like someone I know who contemplated leaving law school a year ago to join the army but decided to stick around. Anyway, I am also a rising 3L and I considered leaving law school at the end of past semester which was this past May/June. I came to law school with the desire to enter this specific field of law but unfortunately, this area of law just repeatedly shut its door on me because I lacked the degree and expertise they were looking for. I don't want to sound bitter. But maybe it just wasn't meant to be. It's hard to gain experience when nobody would offer you the chance to gain experience. My plan is to finish law school and move on from there whether or not I decide to stay in law.
I think since you've made it to your 3L year, it's better to just finish it up. At least there is that degree and who knows when the economy picks up (whenever that will be in the near future), there is after all something you can do with this degree. I know I sound idealistic in some way. Regardless, what you've learned in law school will be helpful in some aspect whatever you choose to do.
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First of all, your post reads a lot like someone I know who contemplated leaving law school a year ago to join the army but decided to stick around. Anyway, I am also a rising 3L and I considered leaving law school at the end of past semester which was this past May/June. I came to law school with the desire to enter this specific field of law but unfortunately, this area of law just repeatedly shut its door on me because I lacked the degree and expertise they were looking for. I don't want to sound bitter. But maybe it just wasn't meant to be. It's hard to gain experience when nobody would offer you the chance to gain experience. My plan is to finish law school and move on from there whether or not I decide to stay in law.
I think since you've made it to your 3L year, it's better to just finish it up. At least there is that degree and who knows when the economy picks up (whenever that will be in the near future), there is after all something you can do with this degree. I know I sound idealistic in some way. Regardless, what you've learned in law school will be helpful in some aspect whatever you choose to do.
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SoDespondent (Jul 27 - 5:40 pm)
Yes, I suppose that because I was too stupid to drop out a year ago, I might as well swallow this bitter pill and finish. I am not sold on the inherent "value" of a J.D., especially outside of the legal realm. Part of me feels like I'll be walking around with those scarlet letters and will scare away non-legal employers.
After two years of being beaten on, hundreds of rejections from even the shittiest of the shitlaw firms, and seeing this year's graduating class go off into the unemployment abyss, I'm a little short on hope and idealism.
But yeah, I guess finishing makes sense if you ask most people. I will get a momentary wisp of gratification hanging my worthless J.D. on the wall next to my equally worthless B.A.
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Yes, I suppose that because I was too stupid to drop out a year ago, I might as well swallow this bitter pill and finish. I am not sold on the inherent "value" of a J.D., especially outside of the legal realm. Part of me feels like I'll be walking around with those scarlet letters and will scare away non-legal employers.
After two years of being beaten on, hundreds of rejections from even the shittiest of the shitlaw firms, and seeing this year's graduating class go off into the unemployment abyss, I'm a little short on hope and idealism.
But yeah, I guess finishing makes sense if you ask most people. I will get a momentary wisp of gratification hanging my worthless J.D. on the wall next to my equally worthless B.A.
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therewillbeblood (Jul 29 - 9:48 am)
It's not just the money or lack of value of a JD; I think having one hurts your resume these days, but 2 years of law school then dropping out hurts your resume even more.
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It's not just the money or lack of value of a JD; I think having one hurts your resume these days, but 2 years of law school then dropping out hurts your resume even more.
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trailoftiers (Jul 29 - 4:01 pm)
If you're going military, just finish. 10 year public service forgiveness counts with the military. Additionally, if you get some experience/ojt in the military for something halfway useful, the law degree might not be the scarlet letter it is right now.
There is a chance, if you went OCS, that you would not get promoted past O-3 or so. Read up on O-4 and above. You get in the zone for promotion, which is super competitive around O-4, because these are all career guys. If you don't get promoted within a certain period of being in the zone and above the zone, you're out of the service. I often wonder whether or not they would just kick most people out 10-15 years in to avoid pension costs. I know the air force has a big time retention rate.
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If you're going military, just finish. 10 year public service forgiveness counts with the military. Additionally, if you get some experience/ojt in the military for something halfway useful, the law degree might not be the scarlet letter it is right now.
There is a chance, if you went OCS, that you would not get promoted past O-3 or so. Read up on O-4 and above. You get in the zone for promotion, which is super competitive around O-4, because these are all career guys. If you don't get promoted within a certain period of being in the zone and above the zone, you're out of the service. I often wonder whether or not they would just kick most people out 10-15 years in to avoid pension costs. I know the air force has a big time retention rate.
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SoDespondent (Jul 29 - 6:10 pm)
So I hear that Army JAG is a little less selective than the Air Force, although quality of life is much worse and you will deploy for a year or more at a time. Salary and loan repayments are, of course, the same.
Maybe I will try for both on the off-chance that Army will pick me up after a few boards. Sitting in Afghanistan for a year (and getting paid) can't be any worse than sitting in mom's basement for a year as an unemployed law graduate.
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So I hear that Army JAG is a little less selective than the Air Force, although quality of life is much worse and you will deploy for a year or more at a time. Salary and loan repayments are, of course, the same.
Maybe I will try for both on the off-chance that Army will pick me up after a few boards. Sitting in Afghanistan for a year (and getting paid) can't be any worse than sitting in mom's basement for a year as an unemployed law graduate.
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kyle (Jul 29 - 6:57 pm)
i looked into this earlier in the summer, Air Force OTS is impossible right now. Didn't even hold their last boards I believe.
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Post a message in this threadi looked into this earlier in the summer, Air Force OTS is impossible right now. Didn't even hold their last boards I believe.
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