going to GW Law ... talk to me
hanes26 (Jul 19 - 11:42 pm)
so I'll be a 1L in august at GW law and after reading forums and posts I'm starting to freak about salary/job prospects. I need the advice of JDU realists haha tls fed me some bullshit. what should I do? i was waitlisted at 7 of the top 14 ones but I don't want to wait a year. Is this any good should I go through w/ GW .. gimme' some gw hate/love
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so I'll be a 1L in august at GW law and after reading forums and posts I'm starting to freak about salary/job prospects. I need the advice of JDU realists haha tls fed me some bullshit. what should I do? i was waitlisted at 7 of the top 14 ones but I don't want to wait a year. Is this any good should I go through w/ GW .. gimme' some gw hate/love
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Knut (Jul 19 - 11:45 pm)
http://firsttiertoilet.blogspot.com/
I went to a much higher ranked school. Almost everyone I knew was unemployed, unless you count working at the library over the summer as "employed" (which the school apparently does).
I'm getting tired of these questions. You should know better.
The Class of 2013 has a good chance of being in an even worse position. You guys aren't getting it.
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http://firsttiertoilet.blogspot.com/
I went to a much higher ranked school. Almost everyone I knew was unemployed, unless you count working at the library over the summer as "employed" (which the school apparently does).
I'm getting tired of these questions. You should know better.
The Class of 2013 has a good chance of being in an even worse position. You guys aren't getting it.
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PolkHighRB (Jul 19 - 11:47 pm)
A couple questions (in order of importance):
1. How much debt are you taking on, paying sticker?
2. How old are you?
3. Male or female?
DC's a tough market (but then again, I can't think of any that aren't).
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A couple questions (in order of importance):
1. How much debt are you taking on, paying sticker?
2. How old are you?
3. Male or female?
DC's a tough market (but then again, I can't think of any that aren't).
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hanes26 (Jul 19 - 11:50 pm)
i'm paying a sticker i'm 23 will be 24 in december... and I'm a female although I don't know how this matters haha. I'm also from Eastern Europe been in the us only for college.
well I was asking b/c the advice seems to be that if you go to a T14 you're much better off. I guess I wanted to know if my future salary/job failure would be due to the school ranking or due to a shitty economy
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i'm paying a sticker i'm 23 will be 24 in december... and I'm a female although I don't know how this matters haha. I'm also from Eastern Europe been in the us only for college.
well I was asking b/c the advice seems to be that if you go to a T14 you're much better off. I guess I wanted to know if my future salary/job failure would be due to the school ranking or due to a shitty economy
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Knut (Jul 19 - 11:53 pm)
You are not "much better off" at a T14. Trust me. Are you reconsidering your attending law school?
Have you heard of the "law school scam" blogs?
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You are not "much better off" at a T14. Trust me. Are you reconsidering your attending law school?
Have you heard of the "law school scam" blogs?
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AJRESQ (Jul 20 - 12:01 am)
If you're hot you should be fine. I don't know many unemployed hot JDs.
They might not work in law, though... but at least they're employed.
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If you're hot you should be fine. I don't know many unemployed hot JDs.
They might not work in law, though... but at least they're employed.
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AJRESQ (Jul 20 - 12:00 am)
I preface this post with the following: I'm a gainfully employed lawyer. I generally like this profession. I'm not going to get into it, but I'm doing reasonably well.
You are, more likely than not, fucked. The difference is that I'm in a secondary market, and I'm primarily based out of a secondary market within that secondary market doing some fairly niche stuff. My competition is mostly a bunch of locals like myself.
Your competition is not just Georgetown and American, but it's also Yale, Harvard, Penn, and all the local east coast schools. EVERYONE on the east coast wants to work in a major market like DC, NYC, or Boston.
I know so many attorneys from GW and American that never found legal work. Why? You're not going to be competitive in a secondary market like mine, because why would you want to work here? We tend to favor regional applicants. Your own market is also incredibly competitive.
In addition, there are so many unemployed former biglaw attorneys out there with real experience that it's extra super hard for a recent grad to find work. I can (a) hire someone with experience and pay them $40k - $75k a year; or (b) I can hire you with NO experience and you'll expect the same, even though most of your time will be written off. Hmmmmmm... what should I do?
What's the hurry to go to law school? The profession isn't going anywhere. Even a T-14 isn't a guarantee into biglaw. You can still end up doing doc review from Cornell.
Listen to Knut. If you absolutely must go to law school, either go to a T10 or go in a secondary market. Don't go to GW, American, Brooklyn, Cardozo, Hofstra, etc.
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I preface this post with the following: I'm a gainfully employed lawyer. I generally like this profession. I'm not going to get into it, but I'm doing reasonably well.
You are, more likely than not, fucked. The difference is that I'm in a secondary market, and I'm primarily based out of a secondary market within that secondary market doing some fairly niche stuff. My competition is mostly a bunch of locals like myself.
Your competition is not just Georgetown and American, but it's also Yale, Harvard, Penn, and all the local east coast schools. EVERYONE on the east coast wants to work in a major market like DC, NYC, or Boston.
I know so many attorneys from GW and American that never found legal work. Why? You're not going to be competitive in a secondary market like mine, because why would you want to work here? We tend to favor regional applicants. Your own market is also incredibly competitive.
In addition, there are so many unemployed former biglaw attorneys out there with real experience that it's extra super hard for a recent grad to find work. I can (a) hire someone with experience and pay them $40k - $75k a year; or (b) I can hire you with NO experience and you'll expect the same, even though most of your time will be written off. Hmmmmmm... what should I do?
What's the hurry to go to law school? The profession isn't going anywhere. Even a T-14 isn't a guarantee into biglaw. You can still end up doing doc review from Cornell.
Listen to Knut. If you absolutely must go to law school, either go to a T10 or go in a secondary market. Don't go to GW, American, Brooklyn, Cardozo, Hofstra, etc.
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MalletOfMalice (Jul 20 - 12:57 am)
You'd be ok if one of the below applies:
(1) You have a full-time job right now that can cover your loans that will also allow you to hide your JD in your resume in case you graduate unemployed. - I include this possibility because GW has a part time program, I think.
(2) You are independently wealthy or well funded by your family and can afford to just collect degrees
(3) You are very well connected in the law field
(4) You are top 15% after 1L (but since 85% of people like you won't be top 15%, you're going against the odds here)
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You'd be ok if one of the below applies:
(1) You have a full-time job right now that can cover your loans that will also allow you to hide your JD in your resume in case you graduate unemployed. - I include this possibility because GW has a part time program, I think.
(2) You are independently wealthy or well funded by your family and can afford to just collect degrees
(3) You are very well connected in the law field
(4) You are top 15% after 1L (but since 85% of people like you won't be top 15%, you're going against the odds here)
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hanes26 (Jul 20 - 1:02 am)
well, i'm full time, not wealthy, not connected so last thing remaining is option 4 ughhh. i was a poli sci major so idk what else I would do ... I had a sincere interest in the legal field and worked in a lawyer's office but all this T14 talk is killing me. I'm still wait listed at upenn, duke, and uva but I don't want to defer or to wait years
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well, i'm full time, not wealthy, not connected so last thing remaining is option 4 ughhh. i was a poli sci major so idk what else I would do ... I had a sincere interest in the legal field and worked in a lawyer's office but all this T14 talk is killing me. I'm still wait listed at upenn, duke, and uva but I don't want to defer or to wait years
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MalletOfMalice (Jul 20 - 1:11 am)
T14 isn't a magic cutoff, and it's more like a spectrum.
Anyways, just take advantage of your knowlege that the industry is abyssmal right now, and you'll do better. A lot of law students are still delusional and many of them will be fucked.
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T14 isn't a magic cutoff, and it's more like a spectrum.
Anyways, just take advantage of your knowlege that the industry is abyssmal right now, and you'll do better. A lot of law students are still delusional and many of them will be fucked.
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AJRESQ (Jul 20 - 10:38 am)
This is what has destroyed many many many many kids just like yourself. "I have a sincere interest in law and I don't know what else I can do."
With little to no debt and a college degree, the possibilities are limitless. Be a sailor, a poet, be an artist, work on a political campaign, try human resources, be an insurance adjuster (very close to what lawyers do), do onto the job boards and see who is hiring. There are so many things you can do. So many kids just go to law school because they can't think of "anything else to do" and then they end up LESS employable than they were in the first place with MORE debt. WAY more debt. You might not think you have a lot of options, but I hate to tell you this, you have more options than MANY MANY MANY newly minted lawyers by virtue of not having a JD and having manageable debt.
I note -- you might see some of the positions I've listed as "not prestigious." That's why a lot of people go to law school. Their former job wasn't that "prestigious" -- it was a 9 - 5 making $50k a year. The reality of law is that it is often not prestigious.
Lawyers are begging or contract work right now, virtually unemployed, taking just about any piece of shit case that walks through their door. That is assuming, of course, you even GET a "real" lawyer job, which could pay you as little as $35k a year with no benefits. You might just end up doing document review or temping like so many other lawyers are doing right now. Even though you came from a "good school." That, my friend, is the reality of the market. There is a glut of attorneys in your market who would give a body part for a job that pays $50k a year and offered health benefits. You think I'm kidding? Ask around.
Here is the deal with law: it's permanent. Once you get the JD there is no turning back. You've got $150k in debt. Non-legal employers will wonder why you "couldn't hack it as a lawyer" and want to work for them, as you try and explain why your judicial internship is relevant to the position as a manager at Starbucks. If you don't get in at a decent firm, or aren't capitalized enough to start your own (I do NOT recommend this out of law school), there is a good chance you'll spend the next 5 - 10 years going from doc review to doc review, praying for a job that pays $50k a year.
You might even get a cool legal job and hate the law. The deadlines, the asshole lawyers, the malpractice suits, dealing with unreasonable clients, arrogant partners who will hit on you. Once you make it, it's not all rainbows and sunshine. (but can be pretty cool, I admit.)
Again, I don't mean to be all doom and gloom on you, but I'm very lucky to be where I'm at. I'm realistic: I ended up here mostly by luck. Took my chance with a startup firm and it paid off. You might get lucky and honestly, I hope you do. But you might also be unlucky. Just to give you an example, a 2007 grad of mine never found anything meaningful. He's over 3 years out and does doc review and "the solo" thing. Meaning he mostly does doc review. Good school, too. Oh, and he lives at home with his mom in his 30s, because law school is fucking expensive.
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This is what has destroyed many many many many kids just like yourself. "I have a sincere interest in law and I don't know what else I can do."
With little to no debt and a college degree, the possibilities are limitless. Be a sailor, a poet, be an artist, work on a political campaign, try human resources, be an insurance adjuster (very close to what lawyers do), do onto the job boards and see who is hiring. There are so many things you can do. So many kids just go to law school because they can't think of "anything else to do" and then they end up LESS employable than they were in the first place with MORE debt. WAY more debt. You might not think you have a lot of options, but I hate to tell you this, you have more options than MANY MANY MANY newly minted lawyers by virtue of not having a JD and having manageable debt.
I note -- you might see some of the positions I've listed as "not prestigious." That's why a lot of people go to law school. Their former job wasn't that "prestigious" -- it was a 9 - 5 making $50k a year. The reality of law is that it is often not prestigious.
Lawyers are begging or contract work right now, virtually unemployed, taking just about any piece of shit case that walks through their door. That is assuming, of course, you even GET a "real" lawyer job, which could pay you as little as $35k a year with no benefits. You might just end up doing document review or temping like so many other lawyers are doing right now. Even though you came from a "good school." That, my friend, is the reality of the market. There is a glut of attorneys in your market who would give a body part for a job that pays $50k a year and offered health benefits. You think I'm kidding? Ask around.
Here is the deal with law: it's permanent. Once you get the JD there is no turning back. You've got $150k in debt. Non-legal employers will wonder why you "couldn't hack it as a lawyer" and want to work for them, as you try and explain why your judicial internship is relevant to the position as a manager at Starbucks. If you don't get in at a decent firm, or aren't capitalized enough to start your own (I do NOT recommend this out of law school), there is a good chance you'll spend the next 5 - 10 years going from doc review to doc review, praying for a job that pays $50k a year.
You might even get a cool legal job and hate the law. The deadlines, the asshole lawyers, the malpractice suits, dealing with unreasonable clients, arrogant partners who will hit on you. Once you make it, it's not all rainbows and sunshine. (but can be pretty cool, I admit.)
Again, I don't mean to be all doom and gloom on you, but I'm very lucky to be where I'm at. I'm realistic: I ended up here mostly by luck. Took my chance with a startup firm and it paid off. You might get lucky and honestly, I hope you do. But you might also be unlucky. Just to give you an example, a 2007 grad of mine never found anything meaningful. He's over 3 years out and does doc review and "the solo" thing. Meaning he mostly does doc review. Good school, too. Oh, and he lives at home with his mom in his 30s, because law school is fucking expensive.
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turde (Jul 20 - 1:33 am)
Emory is ranked 20th or something and they have a whopping 27 employers coming to their OCI for 250 students.
HYS OR DIE
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Emory is ranked 20th or something and they have a whopping 27 employers coming to their OCI for 250 students.
HYS OR DIE
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TTTsuicide (Jul 20 - 2:49 am)
I'd do next cycle and apply to a bunch of top 50 state schools where GW numbers will probably get you a full ride with no strings somewhere. Think schools like UGA, Wisc, OSU, ASU, Bama, Arizona, Florida, Utah...Top 20% + LR at most of these schools probably gets you big/mid law if you're not a deadbeat interviewer and it will be much easier to perform better knowing you're not looking at 200k debt if you fuck up. GW probably wouldn't allow you to have much more leeway grade wise. You should know by now, it's T14 and everybody else. And aren't most GW students just viewed viewed as t14/Gtown rejects? GW at sticker is only slightly less of a crackhead move than Kickflipninja paying sticker at AmericaTTTan
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I'd do next cycle and apply to a bunch of top 50 state schools where GW numbers will probably get you a full ride with no strings somewhere. Think schools like UGA, Wisc, OSU, ASU, Bama, Arizona, Florida, Utah...Top 20% + LR at most of these schools probably gets you big/mid law if you're not a deadbeat interviewer and it will be much easier to perform better knowing you're not looking at 200k debt if you fuck up. GW probably wouldn't allow you to have much more leeway grade wise. You should know by now, it's T14 and everybody else. And aren't most GW students just viewed viewed as t14/Gtown rejects? GW at sticker is only slightly less of a crackhead move than Kickflipninja paying sticker at AmericaTTTan
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kickflipninja (Jul 20 - 9:14 am)
"GW at sticker is only slightly less of a crackhead move than Kickflipninja paying sticker at AmericaTTTan"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSlMnjv-YAI
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"GW at sticker is only slightly less of a crackhead move than Kickflipninja paying sticker at AmericaTTTan"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSlMnjv-YAI
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pharmstudent (Jul 20 - 3:11 am)
wait for the T14's. And remember, while your peers and everyone in your family will be impressed by law school a cruel reality of joblessness and massive student debt may await you after graduation.
well, good luck
:D
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wait for the T14's. And remember, while your peers and everyone in your family will be impressed by law school a cruel reality of joblessness and massive student debt may await you after graduation.
well, good luck
:D
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hanes26 (Jul 20 - 5:25 am)
true about the georgetown comment ...i FEEL like a gtown reject haha
well this certainly gives me something to think about
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true about the georgetown comment ...i FEEL like a gtown reject haha
well this certainly gives me something to think about
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TTTsuicide (Jul 20 - 6:02 am)
seriously, this is a no brainer. If you can get a ride at one of those schools I mentioned (I'm assuming you have like a 165+ 3.5+ or so) which is probably likely, you'd be so much better off than 200k debt at GW. I went to big state u on the cheap and the top 20% and LR people all got vault or NLJ firms. I would imagine that ITE, GW ain't getting much deeper than top third into big firms...Is a little more security worth all that money? And yeah, you're always going to be viewed as a GTown reject, just like Fordham people are viewed as NYU/CLS rejects.
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seriously, this is a no brainer. If you can get a ride at one of those schools I mentioned (I'm assuming you have like a 165+ 3.5+ or so) which is probably likely, you'd be so much better off than 200k debt at GW. I went to big state u on the cheap and the top 20% and LR people all got vault or NLJ firms. I would imagine that ITE, GW ain't getting much deeper than top third into big firms...Is a little more security worth all that money? And yeah, you're always going to be viewed as a GTown reject, just like Fordham people are viewed as NYU/CLS rejects.
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JJPisdead (Jul 20 - 8:52 am)
take a free ride somewhere else. i know a few people who, in good times (early 2000s) were somewhere above median and either on moot court or journal. they had a tough time getting work and were nowhere near in contention for biglaw. in this economy, that does not bode well for people at GW who are in the top quarter or so.
if you get a free ride at a lower tier 1 and do very well and get on law review and/or moot court, you will probably have better employment options and, more importantly, no debt.
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take a free ride somewhere else. i know a few people who, in good times (early 2000s) were somewhere above median and either on moot court or journal. they had a tough time getting work and were nowhere near in contention for biglaw. in this economy, that does not bode well for people at GW who are in the top quarter or so.
if you get a free ride at a lower tier 1 and do very well and get on law review and/or moot court, you will probably have better employment options and, more importantly, no debt.
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AJRESQ (Jul 20 - 11:07 am)
This whole notion of "get into the best law school you can and don't worry about debt" notion is bullshit. Outside the T-14, and really T-10 lately it's "everyone else." There are the 14 national schools. Everything is regional. Outside the T-14 you're at a regional school. There is a regional bias in most secondary markets. A secondary market isn't going to find you more appealing because you went to a better school than most of the locals -- they're going to find you LESS appealing since a secondary market obviously isn't somewhere that you want to be. You just couldn't find anything in your own market. Just because the school is ranked "higher" by US News and World Report, employers aren't going to say "My! Like a shining ray of light! A true blue T1 graduate! Step aside all you T2 graduates, we have a T1 graduate! A bright day it is in our office today! We've found someone!" No. They're generally going to favor regional applicants. We've discussed that our next hire won't be a regional applicant just to get some diversity in here, for whatever that's worth... but consider the fact that ALL of our hires have been from the local law schools.
Which means you can go to a TT in a secondary market and do alright. Conversely, you can go to a T1 in a major market (like American or GW) and do shitty. Here is the real shocker: you can go to a TTTT in a secondary market (like Widener) and have a chance. A better chance than someone from a T1 like American.
Supply and demand.
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This whole notion of "get into the best law school you can and don't worry about debt" notion is bullshit. Outside the T-14, and really T-10 lately it's "everyone else." There are the 14 national schools. Everything is regional. Outside the T-14 you're at a regional school. There is a regional bias in most secondary markets. A secondary market isn't going to find you more appealing because you went to a better school than most of the locals -- they're going to find you LESS appealing since a secondary market obviously isn't somewhere that you want to be. You just couldn't find anything in your own market. Just because the school is ranked "higher" by US News and World Report, employers aren't going to say "My! Like a shining ray of light! A true blue T1 graduate! Step aside all you T2 graduates, we have a T1 graduate! A bright day it is in our office today! We've found someone!" No. They're generally going to favor regional applicants. We've discussed that our next hire won't be a regional applicant just to get some diversity in here, for whatever that's worth... but consider the fact that ALL of our hires have been from the local law schools.
Which means you can go to a TT in a secondary market and do alright. Conversely, you can go to a T1 in a major market (like American or GW) and do shitty. Here is the real shocker: you can go to a TTTT in a secondary market (like Widener) and have a chance. A better chance than someone from a T1 like American.
Supply and demand.
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Bostonlawyer.2 (Jul 20 - 11:31 am)
I cannot understate the burden of the huge debt you will incur at GW...
Even if you can get a job...your flexibility is severely curtailed. You cannot just go to China to teach english for a year, or travel for a year...youmay have to do a job you hate just to pay the loans.
I would not advise anyone to pay sticker to GW in this current environment.
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I cannot understate the burden of the huge debt you will incur at GW...
Even if you can get a job...your flexibility is severely curtailed. You cannot just go to China to teach english for a year, or travel for a year...youmay have to do a job you hate just to pay the loans.
I would not advise anyone to pay sticker to GW in this current environment.
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dwismos (Jul 21 - 12:21 am)
If one makes 4k/month, and the payment is 10% of your income, then you're left with about 2400/month after taxes. Yeah, that kind of sucks, but it's not absolutely horrible. Over 25 years that would suck, but your income would likely increase.
Edit: I posted in this thread before starting another because I thought it warranted a thread. I'm a noob. Sorry
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If one makes 4k/month, and the payment is 10% of your income, then you're left with about 2400/month after taxes. Yeah, that kind of sucks, but it's not absolutely horrible. Over 25 years that would suck, but your income would likely increase.
Edit: I posted in this thread before starting another because I thought it warranted a thread. I'm a noob. Sorry
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frugal_and_puzzled (Jul 21 - 7:10 am)
Odds she reverses her LS decision inside of 2 weeks? .0234%
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Odds she reverses her LS decision inside of 2 weeks? .0234%
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superttthero (Jul 21 - 8:53 am)
While I agree with almost everything people on this board are saying, I think that the real key is lowered expectations.
Law school is a giant risk. You can be the 5% that hit that BIGLAW gravy train (which isn't what everyone expects and where you might be laid off in under 3 years) or you have a much larger than 5% of being totally unemployed for years.
A good number of people do find jobs, but its important to realize that most likely your best hope is shitlaw for a solo or sweatshop insurance defense. With close to $200,000 in debt, anything outside of BIGLAW might as well be unemployment.
If I were doing it over again, I wouldn't pay sticker outside of Harvard, Yale, Stanford.
If I were you, I would hold out for HYS, if you don't get in there, wait a year, work, and reapply. Then you either
1) Get into HYS
2) Go, for almost free, to a T1/T2 school where you want to practice (note that this option is only if you do even more research into the legal field and its perils, and yet still want to be an attorney).
GW is not worth the money, IMO. Right now, if someone offered me a free ride to American, I would do that over GW. I am telling you. Six figure debt without the biglaw salary = debt ruling over your life. It really really sucks.
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While I agree with almost everything people on this board are saying, I think that the real key is lowered expectations.
Law school is a giant risk. You can be the 5% that hit that BIGLAW gravy train (which isn't what everyone expects and where you might be laid off in under 3 years) or you have a much larger than 5% of being totally unemployed for years.
A good number of people do find jobs, but its important to realize that most likely your best hope is shitlaw for a solo or sweatshop insurance defense. With close to $200,000 in debt, anything outside of BIGLAW might as well be unemployment.
If I were doing it over again, I wouldn't pay sticker outside of Harvard, Yale, Stanford.
If I were you, I would hold out for HYS, if you don't get in there, wait a year, work, and reapply. Then you either
1) Get into HYS
2) Go, for almost free, to a T1/T2 school where you want to practice (note that this option is only if you do even more research into the legal field and its perils, and yet still want to be an attorney).
GW is not worth the money, IMO. Right now, if someone offered me a free ride to American, I would do that over GW. I am telling you. Six figure debt without the biglaw salary = debt ruling over your life. It really really sucks.
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TiredofStrugglin (Jul 21 - 11:57 am)
but even with the free rides, there's typically strings attached that are still a gamble (maintain a certain GPA, be above a certain percentile in terms of class rank, etc.)
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but even with the free rides, there's typically strings attached that are still a gamble (maintain a certain GPA, be above a certain percentile in terms of class rank, etc.)
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superttthero (Jul 21 - 1:18 pm)
Little in life is guaranteed. HYS sticker or (some) t1/t2s for near free is a gamble i'd take.
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Little in life is guaranteed. HYS sticker or (some) t1/t2s for near free is a gamble i'd take.
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TiredofStrugglin (Jul 21 - 1:24 pm)
i hear ya. i went to a T2 almost for free for one year. lost the scholarship after that. thought about dropping out, and probably should have in hindsight. but hindsight is always 20/20, isn't it? one year dirtcheap is better than no years dirtcheap, i guess.
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i hear ya. i went to a T2 almost for free for one year. lost the scholarship after that. thought about dropping out, and probably should have in hindsight. but hindsight is always 20/20, isn't it? one year dirtcheap is better than no years dirtcheap, i guess.
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hanes26 (Jul 22 - 11:30 pm)
well ... i had a very good gpa and such a shit lsat and everything in my life has been turning out very shitty so yeah after reading jdu and other forums i'm seriously having doubts. I am sincerely interested in law though but i'd hate to go to a shitschool. no, i wouldn't want to go back. at this point, i guess just do at least 1L and see how it goes. but your advices so far sure put the fear of god in me
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well ... i had a very good gpa and such a shit lsat and everything in my life has been turning out very shitty so yeah after reading jdu and other forums i'm seriously having doubts. I am sincerely interested in law though but i'd hate to go to a shitschool. no, i wouldn't want to go back. at this point, i guess just do at least 1L and see how it goes. but your advices so far sure put the fear of god in me
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timetoleavet14 (Jul 22 - 11:32 pm)
Then our work is done.
If you have the fear of god in you when it comes to deciding if a career in law is worth pursuing, consider yourself ahead of 90% of your fellow 1Ls.
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Then our work is done.
If you have the fear of god in you when it comes to deciding if a career in law is worth pursuing, consider yourself ahead of 90% of your fellow 1Ls.
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MalletOfMalice (Jul 23 - 12:03 am)
Sincerely interested in law?
If by that you mean interested in studying law, my answer is that law school isn't needed to understand law. That's why lots of professors at law schools such as Yale don't even have JDs or even law degrees, but other degrees like PhD in History, PhD in Econ, or MDs. I've even seen law professors with physics PhDs. So at the highest level, studying law often isn't even worth the time.
If you mean sincerely interested in practicing law, you're not really serious, are you. :D
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Sincerely interested in law?
If by that you mean interested in studying law, my answer is that law school isn't needed to understand law. That's why lots of professors at law schools such as Yale don't even have JDs or even law degrees, but other degrees like PhD in History, PhD in Econ, or MDs. I've even seen law professors with physics PhDs. So at the highest level, studying law often isn't even worth the time.
If you mean sincerely interested in practicing law, you're not really serious, are you. :D
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hanes26 (Jul 26 - 1:24 pm)
no I do not speak Russian ...I just graduated GW undergrad this may though
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no I do not speak Russian ...I just graduated GW undergrad this may though
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4th_registration (Jul 26 - 4:34 pm)
I know of a girl who went to GW from Penn, and got into biglaw in NYC doing M&A. She was smart and hard-working. But this was back in 2003. She paid off her loans and hightailed it back to DC.
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I know of a girl who went to GW from Penn, and got into biglaw in NYC doing M&A. She was smart and hard-working. But this was back in 2003. She paid off her loans and hightailed it back to DC.
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GWLAWBOY (Jul 27 - 5:26 am)
I graduated from GW Law and, on balance, I would say it's worth the risk that others have voiced here. Admittedly I haven't always felt that way.
I graduated middle to bottom middle of my class and struggled to find a job in DC after graduation. I eventually ended up at DOJ doing contract work for 18 months. That entire period I was convinced that I was fucked and that I would spend the rest of my career as a full time temp.
Fortunately, GW Law great name recognition internationally - especially in Asia in the Middle East. I was so desperate to get out of the temp world that I was willing to move overseas. 18 months after graduation I got a job with a firm in Seoul (no, I'm not Korean, don't speak Korean and have no family connection). All I had at that point was a GW Law degree and 18 months contract work. Asian companies and firms love hiring from schools that have a recognized name. GW is one of those schools.
From the firm I moved in-house with a large Korean company (you would know the name if I mentioned it). After that things took off - mainly on the basis of my experience and on the name of GW L. I'm in-house now in Singapore with a European oil & gas company. I have a great job, that is stable with amazing benefits and get paid a lot money. I know for a fact that one of the reasons I was hired was that the company was familiar with GW Law and was impressed that I had graduated from there.
Yeah, you can go to a T2 - T3 school that is less of a financial commitment, but I guarantee you won't get the name recognition that you get with GW. If you want to work overseas or if you're at least willing to consider working overseas (and I would highly recommend moving to Asia to anyone having trouble finding a job in the US right now) GW is a good investment.
If you are dead set on staying in the D.C. - NYC - BOS corridor then GW Law is a risk - just as any law school is more or less a risk right now. But if you're willing to travel GW is as good a hedge against joblessness as any.
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I graduated from GW Law and, on balance, I would say it's worth the risk that others have voiced here. Admittedly I haven't always felt that way.
I graduated middle to bottom middle of my class and struggled to find a job in DC after graduation. I eventually ended up at DOJ doing contract work for 18 months. That entire period I was convinced that I was fucked and that I would spend the rest of my career as a full time temp.
Fortunately, GW Law great name recognition internationally - especially in Asia in the Middle East. I was so desperate to get out of the temp world that I was willing to move overseas. 18 months after graduation I got a job with a firm in Seoul (no, I'm not Korean, don't speak Korean and have no family connection). All I had at that point was a GW Law degree and 18 months contract work. Asian companies and firms love hiring from schools that have a recognized name. GW is one of those schools.
From the firm I moved in-house with a large Korean company (you would know the name if I mentioned it). After that things took off - mainly on the basis of my experience and on the name of GW L. I'm in-house now in Singapore with a European oil & gas company. I have a great job, that is stable with amazing benefits and get paid a lot money. I know for a fact that one of the reasons I was hired was that the company was familiar with GW Law and was impressed that I had graduated from there.
Yeah, you can go to a T2 - T3 school that is less of a financial commitment, but I guarantee you won't get the name recognition that you get with GW. If you want to work overseas or if you're at least willing to consider working overseas (and I would highly recommend moving to Asia to anyone having trouble finding a job in the US right now) GW is a good investment.
If you are dead set on staying in the D.C. - NYC - BOS corridor then GW Law is a risk - just as any law school is more or less a risk right now. But if you're willing to travel GW is as good a hedge against joblessness as any.
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ELECTRICLIGHTS (Jul 27 - 7:23 am)
"18 months after graduation I got a job with a firm in Seoul (no, I'm not Korean, don't speak Korean and have no family connection). All I had at that point was a GW Law degree and 18 months contract work."
I'd like to hear more of your experiences in Asia. As far as going to Singapore, I'm set where I'm at, but if I had to do it over, I'd definitely do just that.
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"18 months after graduation I got a job with a firm in Seoul (no, I'm not Korean, don't speak Korean and have no family connection). All I had at that point was a GW Law degree and 18 months contract work."
I'd like to hear more of your experiences in Asia. As far as going to Singapore, I'm set where I'm at, but if I had to do it over, I'd definitely do just that.
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TTTheaven (Jul 27 - 9:49 am)
Your insights are helpful and it appears everything worked out very well for you. However, I am curious as to when you graduated? It appears that you have been out for a decent amount of time (I'd guess around 8 years or so).
Do you still think that, given the state of the global economy, recent graduates with little experience will be as successful in gaining real legal experience overseas (i.e., not doc review)? The number of recent graduates I have spoken to would gladly take a job overseas if it meant a stable career path - and these students went to similarly ranked schools as GW.
As for GW, I think it would have been a good investment pre-recession, and even now, it might be a good choice for some people. But as many people have pointed out, the cost of legal education is skyrocketing while the job market is shrinking. While I admit I don't have any first-hand knowledge, I'm guessing this is true of the overseas markets at well.
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Your insights are helpful and it appears everything worked out very well for you. However, I am curious as to when you graduated? It appears that you have been out for a decent amount of time (I'd guess around 8 years or so).
Do you still think that, given the state of the global economy, recent graduates with little experience will be as successful in gaining real legal experience overseas (i.e., not doc review)? The number of recent graduates I have spoken to would gladly take a job overseas if it meant a stable career path - and these students went to similarly ranked schools as GW.
As for GW, I think it would have been a good investment pre-recession, and even now, it might be a good choice for some people. But as many people have pointed out, the cost of legal education is skyrocketing while the job market is shrinking. While I admit I don't have any first-hand knowledge, I'm guessing this is true of the overseas markets at well.
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GWLAWBOY (Jul 27 - 9:30 pm)
ELECTRICLIGHTS: I'd be happy to talk more about my experiences overseas. Not sure how you exchange info privately on here though. . . It's really been great for me, my family and my career. Singapore is a good place to be right now. I initially came to Asia for "3-5 years" thinking I'd be ready to move back to the US after that. This is my 5th year in Asia (2.5 in Singapore) and my wife and I have no plans on moving back to the US any time soon.
TTT: Good questions. I graduated in '03 so I'm 7 years out. Of course the economic global economic environment was stronger when I moved to Korea in '05. That said, I think the economic environment in Asia is stronger now then it was 5 years ago. The Singapore economy, for example, grew by 19.3% in Q2 this year. That is obviously huge - and there are jobs here and throughout Asia on the back of growth like that.
The problem for lawyers trying to move over here is that there are a shit-load more US trained attorneys applying for positions in Asia then there were when I moved to Korea. So the environment is much more competitive now than it was 5 years ago if you're a US attorney looking to break into Asian markets.
There are still plenty of opportunities though - particularly if you're willing to look beyond Singapore, HK, Shanghai & Tokyo. Indonesia is booming and there is a lot of demand for attorneys in the oil & gas & mining industries. I've seen jobs in Malaysia and all over in-land China. And there are always opportunities in Korea. It's not glamorous when you first arrive at an Asian company or law firm - I put up with my fair share of shit when I was in Korea. But the experience and opportunities you get are amazing.
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ELECTRICLIGHTS: I'd be happy to talk more about my experiences overseas. Not sure how you exchange info privately on here though. . . It's really been great for me, my family and my career. Singapore is a good place to be right now. I initially came to Asia for "3-5 years" thinking I'd be ready to move back to the US after that. This is my 5th year in Asia (2.5 in Singapore) and my wife and I have no plans on moving back to the US any time soon.
TTT: Good questions. I graduated in '03 so I'm 7 years out. Of course the economic global economic environment was stronger when I moved to Korea in '05. That said, I think the economic environment in Asia is stronger now then it was 5 years ago. The Singapore economy, for example, grew by 19.3% in Q2 this year. That is obviously huge - and there are jobs here and throughout Asia on the back of growth like that.
The problem for lawyers trying to move over here is that there are a shit-load more US trained attorneys applying for positions in Asia then there were when I moved to Korea. So the environment is much more competitive now than it was 5 years ago if you're a US attorney looking to break into Asian markets.
There are still plenty of opportunities though - particularly if you're willing to look beyond Singapore, HK, Shanghai & Tokyo. Indonesia is booming and there is a lot of demand for attorneys in the oil & gas & mining industries. I've seen jobs in Malaysia and all over in-land China. And there are always opportunities in Korea. It's not glamorous when you first arrive at an Asian company or law firm - I put up with my fair share of shit when I was in Korea. But the experience and opportunities you get are amazing.
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TTTheaven (Jul 27 - 10:22 pm)
Thanks for the answers. Would you be able to share any insights on how to obtain legal employment in Korea or China? Frankly, I wouldn't even know where to begin. I have four years of litigation experience in non-shit law positions - 2 years with a major health care company doing ERISA work and 2 years with a respectable government agency.
I have been trying to move into a transaction practice and would gladly take a job overseas if it could get my foot in the door. I'm in fortunate situation to be relatively young with manageable debt and no family commitments tying me to any one specific area. I have spent a lot of time abroad, particularly in Asia, but unfortunately do not have any foreign language skills. As for my credentials, if that would matter, I would classify them as respectable but far from stellar, i.e., graduated from a T25 school towards the top of my class, journal experience, etc.
Any insights would be greatly appreciated.
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Thanks for the answers. Would you be able to share any insights on how to obtain legal employment in Korea or China? Frankly, I wouldn't even know where to begin. I have four years of litigation experience in non-shit law positions - 2 years with a major health care company doing ERISA work and 2 years with a respectable government agency.
I have been trying to move into a transaction practice and would gladly take a job overseas if it could get my foot in the door. I'm in fortunate situation to be relatively young with manageable debt and no family commitments tying me to any one specific area. I have spent a lot of time abroad, particularly in Asia, but unfortunately do not have any foreign language skills. As for my credentials, if that would matter, I would classify them as respectable but far from stellar, i.e., graduated from a T25 school towards the top of my class, journal experience, etc.
Any insights would be greatly appreciated.
Reply
ELECTRICLIGHTS (Jul 28 - 6:47 am)
For the benefit of others here, what is the first step in preparing yourself to transition to a job in Asia?
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Post a message in this threadFor the benefit of others here, what is the first step in preparing yourself to transition to a job in Asia?
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